Are Polish people so chaotic and disorganized like Germans say?

observer	Oct 5, 11, 11:16 #1
Is it true? Or just a propaganda to discredit Polish people I know it has its roots in history when Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was a rural hellhole struck by poverty but is it true now too?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 12:15 #2
Some are, some aren't. There is a fair bit of order in administration here so the Germans are only right to a point.

PWElThreads: - Posts: 13 Joined: Sep 27, 11 ♂	Edited by: PWEl Oct 5, 11, 12:27 #3
Hey, I once read some memories of a NKVD man, who said that Germans weren't organized at all and he despised their chaotic and messy mass killings east of Bug. So you see, it's not even established that Germans are organized.

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,654 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 12:43 #4
when Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was a rural hellhole struck by poverty In the 15th to 16th centuries the Commonwealth was doing very well for itself, and it was Germany that was a hellhole stuck in poverty, and home to religious bigotry, witch burning, and extreme administrative disorganization(:

a.k.	Oct 5, 11, 12:46 #5
Is it true? Yes, and you can even hear it from Poles themselves that it's true.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 12:56 #6
I don't think so. I know some that are a bit disorganised but some that are very organsied. Most are in between. I think it says more about the infamous German repuation for obsession with efficiency and order than it does about Poles.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 12:57 #7
Good post, Teffle. It comes down to character for the most part.

db1874Threads: 10 Posts: 251 Joined: Jun 28, 07 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 13:04 #8
I don't think so. I know some that are a bit disorganised but some that are very organsied. sure there are individual cases that are both, but generally it's not in a Poles nature to be helpful to each other, so when it comes to being organised as a group of people is when the failure seems to occur in Poland.

a.k.

Oct 5, 11, 13:06 #9

I don't think so. I know some that are a bit disorganised but some that are very organsied. Most are in between.

I think it says more about the infamous German repuation for obsession with efficiency and order than it does about Poles.

Of course individuals can be less or more organised. But it's not about it. Common stereotype in Poland about themselves in that Poles are not very organised when working in a group. I think I agree with that but can't really compare with other nations.

♂

Oct 5, 11, 13:15 #10

OK, different thing but it still has a distinct whiff of bullh1t and xenophobia about it.

It's quite common for countries who have dominated others to make these claims. The Spanish say it about the Portuguese, The English have said it about the Irish, The French I think say it about the Italians (ancient animosity) etc etc.

It's a sly indication that they need governance, control - because they can't even organise themselves.

But maybe independent of this, Poles simply actually are more disorganised as a group than others - somebody has to be I suppose : )

♂

Oct 5, 11, 13:18 #11

You have to look at the impact of transitions between systems. Hungary, for example, looked like a fish out of water in times of capitalism. The organisation aspect proved hard for them simply due to a change in mindset and not so much to do with character. Ingrained attitudes are hard to shake off. I think we need to see things with that in mind. Poland is the same. Many have made the transition well and keep up to speed with organising their documents and schedules.

db1874Threads: 10 Posts: 251 Joined: Jun 28, 07 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 13:19 #12
the best example I always came across was playing them at 5 aside football, as soon as they were losing then the players just seemed to give up and start arguing with each other rather than fight back as a team.

a.k.

Oct 5, 11, 13:29 #13

OK, different thing but it still has a distinct whiff of bullh1t and xenophobia about it.

It's quite common for countries who have dominated others to make these claims. The Spanish say it about the Portuguese, The English have said it about the Irish, The French I think say it about the Italians (ancient animosity) etc etc.

What if Poles says that about Poles? :)

It is also said in Poland that Poles balance the lack of organisation with improvisation. Another steraotype among Poles is that they are masters of improvisation ;)

Bear in mind that we still talk about stereotypes and even natives can be wrong with their jurdgements about themselves :)

Btw. I think it's an intresting subject what are inner stereotypes in other countries. Does Irish people (and other nations) have stereotypes about themselves as well?

♂

Oct 5, 11, 13:29 #14

Poles are a slavic nation , and in my view, slavs tend to be more intuitive than rational (of course not true for all). While Poles are usually quite reactive, I think the main issue is sometimes a difficulty to plan ahead. So yes, I would say that Poles are less organised than the Germans, but still probably more than the Brits. When I had foreign visitors coming to see our family in Warsaw, I used to say that if you want to understand Poles and their contradictions, you just had to look in the street. Usually well disciplined when pedestrians (waiting for the green man, like in Germany or in Zürich, but unlike in the UK or France or Italy), the same people become ill disciplined and aggressive when at the wheel, a bit like our friends in Napoli.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 13:33 #15
Does Irish people have stereotypes about themselves as well? Oh yeah definitely :) Usually fairly subtle things though.

♂

Edited by: jwojcie Oct 5, 11, 13:48 #16

sure there are individual cases that are both, but generally it's not in a Poles nature to be helpful to each other, so when it comes to being organised as a group of people is when the failure seems to occur in Poland.

Well, I don't want to sound pompous but.... 10 milions of Poles in Solidarity movement not so long ago tells something rather positive... At least that Poles are great at organizing clandestine movements. The missing part is probably small local organizations wich are still relatively rare in comparision to WE. But they do exists and last time and checked - growing in number.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 5, 11, 18:24 #17
Please see this thread Poland and Orientalism also for a discussion of this German attitude towards Poles.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Oct 5, 11, 18:49 #18
observer: Are Polish people so chaotic and disorganized like Germans say? Is it true? Or just a propaganda to discredit Polish people Nobody in Germany or elsewhere gives a hoot, that's the reality.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 5, 11, 18:54 #19
Yeah right, TheOther, nobody gives a hoot and that's the reality..... How can you claim to know this? Do you know everybody? Are you privy to their thoughts? Think before you post.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 19:07 #20
So you see, it's not even established that Germans are organized. come and watch....and learn. i think they are maybe not that much organized, poles, but i think thats ok. slavic mentality is simply taking its toll

a.k.	Oct 5, 11, 19:10 #21
slavic mentality is simply taking its toll What do you mean? What toll?

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Oct 5, 11, 19:19 #22
Des Essientes : How can you claim to know this? Propaganda to discredit Polish people - you really believe that nonsense? Use some common sense, man.

polmedThreads: 2 Posts: 274 Joined: Sep 25, 11 ♀	Oct 5, 11, 19:35 #23
just a propaganda to discredit Polish people Hey observer, can you cite such a comment made these days by Germans or you are just following stereotypes.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 5, 11, 19:38 #24
Propaganda to discredit Polish people The claim that Polish people are chaotic and disorganized was indeed a tenet of Prussian propaganda used to justify their rule over Western Poland and it is still used by Germans, and others, to give them a feeling of superiority over Poles.

polmedThreads: 2 Posts: 274 Joined: Sep 25, 11 ♀	Oct 5, 11, 19:44 #25
a tenet of Prussian propaganda used to justify their rule over Western Poland and it is still used by Germans, and others, to give them a feeling of superiority over Poles. Of course and I must say that the more primitive the person is the more stereotyping comments he/she makes.

♂

Oct 5, 11, 20:42 #26

What do you mean? What toll?

slavic mentality is keeping the person human and doesnt make and 'order maschine' like germans from it.

Hey observer, can you cite such a comment made these days by Germans or you are just following stereotypes.

those are stereotypes AND observations. arrogance of germans and their thinking of superiority is endless, esp with those who are less educated and have zero exp with poles...

The claim that Polish people are chaotic and disorganized was indeed a tenet of Prussian propaganda used to justify their rule over Western Poland and it is still used by Germans, and others, to give them a feeling of superiority over Poles.

excatly

♂

Edited by: TheOther Oct 5, 11, 21:21 #27

Des Essientes: ...is still used by Germans, and others, to give them a feeling of superiority over Poles.

Serving exactly what purpose? Ooooooh ... I'm superior to a Pole ... ooooooh ... wank, wank, moan, moan ... ? Get my drift? The whole thing doesn't make sense (except for a handful of fascist scumbags and some trailer trash maybe).

sascha: slavic mentality is keeping the person human

As the Soviets and Serbs have proven...

sascha: arrogance of germans and their thinking of superiority is endless

Didn't you say you're a German? :)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,788 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 5, 11, 21:24 #28
What a nonsense? There is always a reason for bad organization, somebody makes monies on that !

♂ [Suspended]

Oct 5, 11, 21:24 #29

The claim that Polish people are chaotic and disorganized was indeed a tenet of Prussian propaganda used to justify their rule over Western Poland and it is still used by Germans, and others, to give them a feeling of superiority over Poles.

Have you ever been to Poland? Have you ever experienced the Polish work ethic in person?

Ah...no. You haven't. You've clearly never experienced the wonders that is the urząd, and the working hours designed to suit them. Work ethic? What work ethic?

♂

Edited by: sascha Oct 5, 11, 21:33 #30

As the Soviets and Serbs have proven...

u arent slavic, right? so dont participate in this discussion if u dont know what i mean. get my drift? ;)

Didn't you say you're a German? :)

yes, so what. as i mnetioned above, those people i described i dont belong to. furthermore my 1st job after university lead me to the ex blok countries and mostly to poland where i had more than 20 projects as projectengineer all over the country. i like poles a lot. the rest is just stereotypes and propaganda.

better meet people in person and then come back with an opinion.

Have you ever been to Poland? Have you ever experienced the Polish work ethic in person?

Ah...no. You haven't. You've clearly never experienced the wonders that is the urząd, and the working hours designed to suit them. Work ethic? What work ethic?

yes, i have. just read my comment above. smart people btw dont have to travel somewhere to make up the mind. better it is yes, but not the ulimate if u r openminded.

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