Religion on increase not only in Poland

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Jul 3, 10, 19:41 #1

Someone on PF said he was waiting from the smoke and mirrors of religion to disappear. But they will never disappear. And the smoke metaphor is very salient. Think coloured smoke, pulsating lights, deafening decibels and communion under the species of C2H5OH, grass and ecstasy and you can easily envision the atmosphere of one of the chapels of today's growing religion. Religion will probably never disappear, but it will evolve. Today's developing religion is popconsumerism whose Vatican is Hollywood, whose basilicas are shopping malls and discos, whose central pulpit is MTV and whose highpriests are skilled marketers served by a clergy comprising the latest crop of passing idols and seasonal celebrities. This church also has its own precepts, telling its faithful they were 'born to buy' and urging them to 'shop till you drop'. Yes, religion is alive and well in PL, across the EU, N. America and points in between.

ZedThreads: - Posts: 304 Joined: May 25, 10 ♂	Edited by: Zed Jul 3, 10, 20:27 #2
Right, whatever you believe is fine, just leave alone those of us who don't.

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Jul 3, 10, 23:55 #3

You make a very good point and you are obviously a very intelligent and articulate person ... Your ideas don't come across that you are a particulary religious person yourself, so would it suprise you to hear that the Bible itself clearly talks of a time when world religion will be banned? this seems a bit of an oxymoran but its true and if you take the time to look into current affairs you will see this coming very apparent more so now than ever. Little by little we hear of jewellery thats not allowed to be worn, mosque roofs no longer allowed to be produced (eg France) and other suchlikes. Religion no longer being taught in schools, its increasingly becoming uncool/unpopular .... etc

The question is why?

irishlodzThreads: 2 Posts: 115 Joined: Oct 19, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 00:47 #4
FoxxiGold: The question is why? Because people are more educated and think for themselves now. In the case of Catholicism it is the actions of the hierarchy in sex abuse cases (or lack of) that has alienated a whole new generation.

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Jul 4, 10, 01:23 #5

FoxxiGold:

You make a very good point and you are obviously a very intelligent and articulate person ... Your ideas don't come across that you are a particulary religious person yourself,. so would it suprise you to hear that the Bible itself clearly talks of a time when world religion will be banned?

I'm afraid that if you really are intelligent, you'll see that the many authors of the Bible all used the same kind of fear-mongering psychology. I mean, if you predict that terrible things will happen when people are going to walk away from their religion, then maybe stupid people might cling even harder to their religion, but ofcourse these people will never understand they've mentally enslaved themselves to an elite which wrote these books to surpress the masses. (The Bible is a fairytale.) I just hope you'll see people are people, just as real and as normal as you are. (And there will always be trouble, but our job is to find a better way to get along with eachother, isn't it?)

;)

shewolfThreads: 5 Posts: 1,835 Joined: Dec 23, 06 ♀	Jul 4, 10, 06:33 #6
A J: I'm afraid that if you really are intelligent, you'll see that the many authors of the Bible all used the same kind of fear-mongering psychology. Well, except the ones that wrote about a man who heals the sick, brought people back from the dead, gives comfort, peace, unspeakable joy, and whose love surpases all understanding. Is that fear-mongering psychology? What Bible did you read?

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Jul 4, 10, 06:38 #7

Someone on PF said he was waiting from the smoke and mirrors of religion to disappear. But they will never disappear. And the smoke metaphor is very salient. Think coloured smoke, pulsating lights, deafening decibels and communion under the species of C2H5OH, grass and ecstasy and you can easily envision the atmosphere of one of the chapels of today's growing religion. Religion will probably never disappear, but it will evolve. Today's developing religion is popconsumerism whose Vatican is Hollywood, whose basilicas are shopping malls and discos, whose central pulpit is MTV and whose highpriests are skilled marketers served by a clergy comprising the latest crop of passing idols and seasonal celebrities. This church also has its own precepts, telling its faithful they were 'born to buy' and urging them to 'shop till you drop'. Yes, religion is alive and well in PL, across the EU, N. America and points in between.

So? People go shopping. Moral conundrum here? Do you really believe that God cares how often you shop?

Because people are more educated and think for themselves now. In the case of Catholicism it is the actions of the hierarchy in sex abuse cases (or lack of) that has alienated a whole new generation.

Roman Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, it's all the same ... pure paganism.

The Central thesis of Christianity is Charity, as in be nice to your neighbor. And that's it.

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Jul 4, 10, 06:55 #8

shewolf:

Well, except the ones that wrote about a man who heals the sick, brought people back from the dead, gives comfort, peace, unspeakable joy, and whose love surpases all understanding. Is that fear-mongering psychology? What Bible did you read?

Don't be alarmed, he's just one of those people who cling desperately to what they are told in the movie "Zeitgeist", which is basically just some unbalanced conspirators trying to get attention and followers to their own "cults".

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Jul 4, 10, 08:17 #9

Catholicism, unfortunately, still runs rampant in the USA, but it is also a fact that 16% of it's citizens openly call themselves atheist.....and that's just the number of people that are willing to openly admit it. one could argue religion is not growing, but dying in the USA.

oh, and Socrates, you are severely sick in the head. what you have just written is the equivalent to an anti-semite writing that he/she hopes for another holocaust.

you need to get your head examined.

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Jul 4, 10, 08:52 #10

Polonius3:

Religion will probably never disappear,

there are more atheists these days then ever so i wouldn't say religion will not disappear.. it just may..

FoxxiGold:

The question is why?

maybe because it all sure seems like a bunch of BS..

shewolf:

Well, except the ones that wrote about a man who heals the sick, brought people back from the dead, gives comfort, peace, unspeakable joy, and whose love surpases all understanding. Is that fear-mongering psychology? What Bible did you read?

doesn't that sound more like magic or a fairytale then religion?

Sokrates:

How about not? Personally i think all of you godless f*cks need to be rounded up and burned the good old way.

jesus, save me from your followers..

FUZZYWICKETS:

Catholicism, unfortunately, still runs rampant in the USA,

it's definitely not the same as catholicism in PL or other european countries..

Sokrates:

Fact is Catholicism is the only way and you f*cking non believers need to convert or die.

it was made up by a roman ruler to control the masses.. so i don't get your zealous view of something totally made up by a man..

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Jul 4, 10, 10:46 #11

shewolf:

Well, except the ones that wrote about a man who heals the sick, brought people back from the dead, gives comfort, peace, unspeakable joy, and whose love surpases all understanding.

Start reading - intently - from page one, and you'll see that the negative outweighs the positive.

shewolf:

Is that fear-mongering psychology?

You're talking about a few pages in the Bible, I'm talking about all of its content. I take it you haven't read Revelation? So to your question; How is that not fear-mongering psychology?

shewolf:

What Bible did you read?

I've read various types of Bibles, including the Nag Hammadi scrolls.

Sire Brenshar:

Don't be alarmed, he's just one of those people who cling desperately to what they are told in the movie "Zeitgeist", which is basically just some unbalanced conspirators trying to get attention and followers to their own "cults".

No, he really isn't. It would definitely make you look better if you could leave such prejudices and assumptions out, because I'm not assuming too much about you either. Thank you.

Sokrates:

Its all about points of view plk, my point of view is that you need to f*cking burn so people who share your opinion realise they dont get to have an opinion being heretics.

And you're worried about Muslims, Terrorism and the Taliban? Dude, if that's your opinion, then you ARE the Taliban.

;)

plk123:

it was made up by a roman ruler to control the masses.. so i don't get your zealous view of something totally made up by a man..

Me neither.

:)

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,835 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 12:19 #12
The growing numebr of athesis does not mean that religion is dying, only changing. Most of these self-declared atheists are deeply plugged into the new religion of popconsumerism with all its attendant, icons, highpriests and liturgies. That was the whole point of this thread.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 12:26 #13
Try to see atheists as sth analogous to people that don't vote in elections. In reality, there is a fuzzy difference between atheists and agnostics. They are people that can be swayed but need the right motivation and education. I wouldn't say religion is on the increase here.

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 12:48 #14
Seanus: Do you believe that, David? Seanus im the smart one here. Why should i waste my life on some stupid little church? Wasn't it like some old guys back in the 400'th century that wrote this so called "Holy bible".

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Jul 4, 10, 12:52 #15

Polonius3:

The growing numebr of athesis does not mean that religion is dying, only changing. Most of these self-declared atheists are deeply plugged into the new religion of popconsumerism with all its attendant, icons, highpriests and liturgies. That was the whole point of this thread.

Is it really growing? I'd say those people were always around us, but the pressure of being publicly caned was too much for them to uncover their beliefs.

Religion might be in decline in a way that there's (especially in cities) more people who still admit being a catholic but they don't go to the mass, they rarely have a confession..

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 12:52 #16
Oh, really? Why should you? That's a good question. Do you have faith? Do you believe? It needn't be connected with the church. Try telling that to most Poles and see their reaction, David.

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Jul 4, 10, 12:58 #17

David_18:

Stupid people believe, and smart people act.

This sounds like a rebelious banter of a youngster who think he's really cunning because he's an atheist - a trendy word nowadays - plastic atheists as I call them.

Didn't want to insult you in any way but the problem is far from being "these people are stupid and these are not". Many religious people have solid education and bring a lot to the table, it's ignorance to say otherwise and serious oversimplifying..

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:01 #18
Absolutely right, frd. Look at Dr Walter Martin and Rev Mitchell Pacwa. They are two of the smartest guys I have seen in discussions and actually KNOW the Bible and theology inside out. They 'act' by teaching/preaching and disseminating info. That's action, is it not?

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Jul 4, 10, 13:05 #19

Seanus:

Oh, really? Why should you? That's a good question. Do you have faith? Do you believe? It needn't be connected with the church.

I believe in myself and that's enough.

Seanus:

Try telling that to most Poles and see their reaction, David.

That's Irrelevant.

frd:

This sounds like a rebelious banter of a youngster who think he's really cunning because he's an atheist

No, im just smart enough to realise that the church is build to control the crowds.

frd:

Many religious people have solid education and bring a lot to the table, it's ignorance to say otherwise and serious oversimplifying..

Ok it take it back that people who believes are stupid. But i do feel sorry for the people that listens to Radio maria.

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Jul 4, 10, 13:10 #20

I thought those that believe were dumb/stupid? ;) ;)

Eh, this is a thread about Poland and religion so I see its relevance. You offend or belittle the Bible and you can expect to incur the wrath of Poles. You don't mess with belief.

The church is a crowd puller, I agree with you on that one.

Backpedalling? Just as I thought. They listen because they want to. They are not my kind of people but I don't feel sorry for them as they chose to listen by themselves.

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Jul 4, 10, 13:12 #21

David_18:

Ok it take it back that people who believes are stupid. But i do feel sorry for the people that listens to Radio maria.

Exactly there are different layers of people's beliefs, on one side you've got simpleminded, non-educated people who take everything without any thoughts like a pack of sheep. On the other side you have educated people who are religious, not overly zealus - who take most of it with a grain of salt. Beside preachers in bigger towns are aware that people coming to church have a certain type of background and some things will just not soak in contrary to anything goes (along with agitating during the election campaign) in the countryside..

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Jul 4, 10, 13:18 #22

Zed
Red Heifer, anyone? :-)

Kill it and go to heaven.

People's minds are actually opening up these days, and daring to question.
Apart from the Bible not containing much spirituality (apart from the Sermon On The Mount), much of it, especially the OT, contains revenge, killings and buckets of blood.
And stories such as Moses and his lot wandering in the desert for 40 years (or "a long, long time") is hard to accept. Think about it! Thousands of people roaming around in circles for all those years. I know they didn't have compasses then, but not one had the brains to realise the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, thereby getting their bearings and a sense of direction. As for manna falling down from heaven... yeah, right!

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:23 #23
Seanus: Absolutely right, frd. Look at Dr Walter Martin and Rev Mitchell Pacwa. They are two of the smartest guys I have seen in discussions and actually KNOW the Bible and theology inside out. They 'act' by teaching/preaching and disseminating info. That's action, is it not? Can you be considered smart and still believe in the Santa Claus? Doesn't that point to more of a mental problem?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:24 #24
You'd have to ask David. He's well up on belief and inaction :) There is a steady following here in Poland. Why say more?

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:27 #25
convex: Can you be considered smart and still believe in the Santa Claus? Doesn't that point to more of a mental problem? Being wrong doesn't make you stupid. And you know how it works, if it's a sparse amount of people believing they will call them mentally handicapped if there are millions it's called faith ;)

bimber94Threads: 9 Posts: 400 Joined: Mar 13, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:39 #26
they will call them mentally handicapped ...or that dreaded word of the Polish Inquisition, 'SEKTA!'

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 13:41 #27
Seanus: You'd have to ask David. He's well up on belief and inaction Yes i can be your Dr Phil :) Here is something interesting for you belivers ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Constantinople http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Constantinople_%28360%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

bimber94Threads: 9 Posts: 400 Joined: Mar 13, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 14:03 #28
Religion is blind dogmatic faith. Spirituality is something else and the thing to aim at. If you attend church because that's your vibration and your Kundalini rises thereby, that's also good, though the vast majority attend church either out of fear, blind faith, custom or what their community might think of them if they don't.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 10, 14:07 #29
Bimber is spot on here. I couldn't agree more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n5VvWX6D-s, here is sth that people may find interesting. It's a long discussion.

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Edited by: Nathan Jul 4, 10, 15:48 #30

Polonius3:

. Religion will probably never disappear, but it will evolve. Today's developing religion is popconsumerism whose Vatican is Hollywood, whose basilicas are shopping malls and discos, whose central pulpit is MTV and whose highpriests are skilled marketers served by a clergy comprising the latest crop of passing idols and seasonal celebrities. This church also has its own precepts, telling its faithful they were 'born to buy' and urging them to 'shop till you drop'. Yes, religion is alive and well in PL, across the EU, N. America and points in between.

Excellent point. Majority of us always need to believe in someone, something. Usually we do believe in what makes us happy to believe in. When we grow shallower and shallower in consumerism which eats up our spirituality, or better absence of it, which consumerism simply brings to the front, we start to confess physical religion. But body and everything connected to it: food, iPods, computer games, house with marble walls or blue-ass dolphin meat are good and satisfying as long as the body properly works. But as we all know, it doesn't last. And then neither big porch overlooking the sea, nor pineapple from the Everest will make you happy. And as you said that religion evolves, the same way it evolves within each of our lifespans from a careless kid lost in sucking everything it sees around and trying to grab the world by its horns till the old pals who watch the birds and think of sky caring less of neighbor's car or appearance of a new iPod which can also fart.

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