Religion on increase not only in Poland

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Jul 6, 10, 22:52 #151
Seanus: Don't have the time? Really? really!right now I should be doing something else .... Seanus: It would be a good thread. could be ....it still can be if you will start it..... Seanus: Were you running the campaign for Kommie? ;) well, its good money :) I-S

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 6, 10, 22:55 #152
Oh, that only takes 5 mins ;) ;) I agree. I'll keep it in mind. Oh, he paid you? Anyway, this is about religion. What a divisive force that was in the Balkans. That and ethnicity more.

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Jul 6, 10, 23:14 #153

Seanus:

It wasn't for me as I agree with that and I even said so earlier in the thread. My parents are atheists and raised me according to fairly stern moral standards.

frd:

Anyways, bollocks - there are atheist families that have kids who are just as any other kids.. being religious or not is irrelevant to being a good person.

I agree with both. But I always wondered like what is the guarding tool for not trespassing a moral if you don't believe in someone above you punishing you eventually for the wrongdoing. If there are no consequences to my actions except if I am caught by humans, then being a cunning and elusive creature seems like an easy loophole for a moral behaviour. Will I ever feel regret for doing wrong if I am not caught? And if yes, why?
I would really appreciate an answer from anyone as this was the question I was always looking for and never found. Thanks.

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Jul 7, 10, 01:20 #154

Nathan:

I agree with both. But I always wondered like what is the guarding tool for not trespassing a moral if you don't believe in someone above you punishing you eventually for the wrongdoing. If there are no consequences to my actions except if I am caught by humans, then being a cunning and elusive creature seems like an easy loophole for a moral behaviour. Will I ever feel regret for doing wrong if I am not caught? And if yes, why?
I would really appreciate an answer from anyone as this was the question I was always looking for and never found. Thanks.

are there really any consequences outside the human interaction? or do you feel guilt when the worms are gnawing at your flesh?

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Jul 7, 10, 12:32 #155

Nathan,

There is being punished and there is being punished. To varying degrees, many cultures believe in dishing out some form of physical punishment for wrongdoing. In Scotland, we follow the dictates of reasonable chastisement (RC), i.e punishing proportionately to the offence or misdemeanour. A child cannot get a distorted sense of wrongdoing through a grossly disproportionate penalty.

However, having outlined the position in Scotland, a surprising reaction leads me onto what seems to be the Polish position. I explained the central premise of RC above and, forgive the pun, got lambasted for it. They seem to strongly frown upon such behaviour, preferring instead to verbally launch into their kids. It was as if I was endorsing a punch to the kidneys which is far from being the case.

Nathan, regret also comes from within. I'm not going to say what I did but I've regretted some things in my past. However, my good deeds far outweigh any bad ones so you have a pact with God in a sense. I pass both the Catholic and Protestant tests for sanctification/justification and just get on with things now.

Your core morality comes from somewhere, often rooted subconsciously through factors having ingrained/entrenched themselves. Look at men who don't regret a thing in a cold sense. Do you want to be like them? Are you like them? I sincerely doubt it!

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 8, 10, 23:53 #156
Nathan: Will I ever feel regret for doing wrong if I am not caught? what have you done?

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Edited by: Nathan Jul 9, 10, 05:48 #157

plk123:

are there really any consequences outside the human interaction? or do you feel guilt when the worms are gnawing at your flesh?

I wish I knew the answer for the first question :) The second - guilt is as big as a punishment for the reason of guilt. In itself it has no value for me, Plk123.
What I think is that many of my actions are being based on my faith. And for me not having faith opens a world of completely different attitudes to the surroundings. It has to be based on rationalizing and taking preference in things, which are for the benefit of my own. For example, killing is not an obstacle as it might benefit me in something and there is no one to answer to later anyway - so I cannot harm myself in afterlife either. As Seanus mentioned:

Seanus:

Your core morality comes from somewhere, often rooted subconsciously through factors having ingrained/entrenched themselves.

So we have something that bees and ants or other social animals like us have. They have no faith (at least, we don't know), but evolution ingrained a mechanism of cooperation within these species, us included, to survive the predators and harsh environment. We survive as species in cooperation, not on our own. So, genes are the answer to our morality, when faith is not a factor. Thanks, Seanus, great thought.

Seanus:

Nathan, regret also comes from within.

I think it is the only place it comes from. From outside we get lessons, to which we express our feelings of satisfaction or regret, in my opinion.

Seanus:

Look at men who don't regret a thing in a cold sense. Do you want to be like them? Are you like them? I sincerely doubt it!

I am not and, probably, will never be, but often I wish I was one.

Seanus:

However, having outlined the position in Scotland, a surprising reaction leads me onto what seems to be the Polish position. I explained the central premise of RC above and, forgive the pun, got lambasted for it. They seem to strongly frown upon such behaviour, preferring instead to verbally launch into their kids. It was as if I was endorsing a punch to the kidneys which is far from being the case.

I perfectly understand you and agree with you on minor physical "remuneration" from parent. It is essential for normal development of mentally healthy child. It is the same way in Ukraine and Poland (I don't know who frowns, probably, young parents born in 1990s). I was slapped once in my life and it taught me some years later. And today I am grateful. It (and of course, other things) made me more disciplined, I think. Nowadays kids call 911 for bad look from their parents. What is the hell wrong with our society, man?

Ironside:

what have you done?

Ironside, why do you think it is in perfect tense? :)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 9, 10, 12:39 #158
Nathan: Ironside, why do you think it is in perfect tense? :) keep talking, don't let me stop you ....

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Jul 9, 10, 13:04 #159

Maybe ants have faith in their collaborative efforts :) You have to admit, they work harder than road workers, especially in Montenegro, LOL (It was a joke from my May 2009 trip to the Balkans). The rest? Just like you said :)

Well, people can make you feel regretful for what you have done, not least a Catholic society which encourages confession. Thus an extrinsic/external source. However, it's generally an internal matter as Pearl Jam might say. "You can come to terms and realise you're the only one who cannot forgive yourself" (Present Tense, No Code album, polecam).

I feel that Polish mothers tend to fuss over their children a lot. It's pretty similar to the case in Scotland but I'd say it's a little more visible here.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jul 9, 10, 13:14 #160
Seanus: ants it remind me - Poles Ante Porta ?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 9, 10, 13:35 #161
Well, as long as it's not Ante Pavlić, I don't mind ;) ;) Plenty nuns out in this hot weather. They must be gey sweaty in that black outfit of theirs :( I thought penguins were supposed to live in cold climates :) Why do they call a nun a nun? Because she gets none :)

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Jul 9, 10, 13:51 #162
Seanus: Because she gets none :) That's what you think, but I'm sure everybody knows how kinky Catholics really are when the world isn't looking? (Little girls anyone?) ;P

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 9, 10, 13:52 #163
Yeah, quite :)

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Jul 9, 10, 17:26 #164

Seanus:

Present Tense, No Code album, polecam

Thanks, Seanus, I'll check it out.

Seanus:

"You can come to terms and realise you're the only one who cannot forgive yourself"

Good point. Oneself is the only creature you cannot frankly lie to, especially in feelings.

Ironside:

keep talking, don't let me stop you ....

Join me, Iry :)

Ironside:

it reminds me - Poles Ante Porta ?

Come in, what are you waiting for?

Seanus:

I thought penguins were supposed to live in cold climates :)

Although all penguin species are native to the southern hemisphere, they are not found only in cold climates, such as Antarctica. In fact, only a few species of penguin live so far south. Several species are found in the temperate zone, and one species, the Galápagos Penguin, lives near the equator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin
The weather doesn't change who you are or pretend to be :), even on the outside some remain the same no matter what.

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Jul 9, 10, 19:18 #165

It was Eddie Vedder in his more thoughtful and reflective phase (try also Long Nights and Society, tracks from a film).

Anyway, religion. I don't often see Poles crossing themselves like Spaniards do when I play footie. Watch the Spanish team, esp when they narrowly miss a goal or leave the pitch. The Poles seem to focus everything in on the church. I don't take this approach though I realise the obvious function of the church in this respect.

Hmm...I've just had a feeling of deja-vu, like I've typed this before. Odd!

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