Rich man, poor man - today`s Poland

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Jul 29, 11, 11:31 #61

Oops, it reminds me of communist ideology. Lenin and his comrades professed similar ideas.

Thats the problem when ever i talk about the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project people remember communism and when they think communism its Russia circa 1930's.

=Wroclaw Boy]the free market is killing the US.

Opps, communism reloaded! :):):)

personally i don't see any other option, not communism as such but a redesign of our culture to cater for every human being on this planet. Hell just abolish the monetary system for starters, that would be a great beginning.

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Edited by: pawian Jul 29, 11, 14:42 #62

=Wroclaw Boy]talk about the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project people remember communism and when they think communism its Russia circa 1930's.

But I cannot have another impressions after reading about those movements, especially Venus Project. It is all a mixture of concepts proposed by communist and green parties, with a considerable touch of science fiction.

The core idea advocated by TZM is the replacement of current civilization with a money-free and cybernated "resource-based economy".[4] The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project promote replacing human labour with automation, government will be through collective participation of the public, aided by advanced cybernation.[4][5][6] According to the movement, there will be no decision-making process regarding greater social issues by human beings, those decisions are arrived at by using the scientific method, based on the carrying capacity of the Earth, rather than using human opinions.[7] The replacement of human decision making by artificial intelligence is termed 'Social Cybernation'.[8] Private property will not be abolished, but it will become obsolete as culture grows, being replaced by "a system of universal access"

The Venus Project is an organization that advocates American futurist Jacque Fresco's visions of the future with the aim of improving society by moving towards a global sustainable social design that they call a "resource-based economy". Such a system incorporates sustainable cities and values, energy efficiency, collective farms, natural resource management and advanced automation, focusing on the benefits they claim it will bring to humanity.

Half the points in their list of aims and goals of the project is communist, the other half is environmentalist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venus_Project

It all sounds very beautiful, but only on paper. In practice, it will be a disaster. Read below.

=Wroclaw Boy]personally i don't see any other option, not communism as such but a redesign of our culture to cater for every human being on this planet.

But don`t you understand that any attempts of artifical redesigning of our culture are harmful and have always ended with disaster, no matter if done in communist, fascist or democratic countries? The human culture that we have now is so complex and versatile that you can`t just come and declare its redesign. It won`t work, just like it didn`t work in history.

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Jul 29, 11, 17:26 #63

=pawian]You can teach a kid everything. But only those with a real talent will succeed.

It's been always a mystery to me, why so many Polish people are successful entrepreneurs in the States, and before they got there they were just regular employees. Is it the easiness of starting a business? Or just the pressure to do something or starving? Is it the culture of the new country, where people are willing to scarify more for money and are getting more for their money? Is it the weather? Are people are too depressed to be motivated?

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Jul 29, 11, 19:30 #64

It's been always a mystery to me, why so many Polish people are successful entrepreneurs in the States, and before they got there they were just regular employees. Is it the easiness of starting a business? Or just the pressure to do something or starving? Is it the culture of the new country, where people are willing to scarify more for money and are getting more for their money? Is it the weather? Are people are too depressed to be motivated?

Hmm, generally, Poles are very enterprise-oriented.

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Jul 29, 11, 22:43 #65

This disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition, though necessary both to establish and to maintain the distinction of ranks and the order of society, is, at the same time, the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. That wealth and greatness are often regarded with the respect and admiration which are due only to wisdom and virtue; and that the contempt, of which vice and folly are the only proper objects, is often most unjustly bestowed upon poverty and weakness, has been the complaint of moralists in all ages.

–Adam Smith, the father of modern economics and capitalism, in The Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759).

And that is the most important lesson which the so-called former communists made capitalists now, people of the Adam Smith Center, shoult learn.

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Jul 29, 11, 23:03 #66

How Pope John Paul II and Poland Overcame Communism

Laborem exercens
Addressed by the Supreme Pontiff
JOHN PAUL II

It was precisely one such wide-ranging anomaly that gave rise in the last century to what has been called "the worker question", sometimes described as "the proletariat question". This question and the problems connected with it gave rise to a just social reaction and caused the impetuous emergence of a great burst of solidarity between workers, first and foremost industrial workers. The call to solidarity and common action addressed to the workers—especially to those engaged in narrowly specialized, monotonous and depersonalized work in industrial plants, when the machine tends to dominate man — was important and eloquent from the point of view of social ethics. It was the reaction against the degradation of man as the subject of work, and against the unheard—of accompanying exploitation in the field of wages, working conditions and social security for the worker. This reaction united the working world in a community marked by great solidarity.

These words corresponds with Adam Smith and remain valid always 'when the machine tends to dominate man'.

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Edited by: NomadatNet Jul 29, 11, 23:28 #67

... especially to those engaged in narrowly specialized, monotonous and depersonalized work in industrial plants, when the machine tends to dominate man — was important and eloquent from the point of view of social ethics...

(leaving Soviets' mistakes aside - if we talk about realities and socialism purely)

Hadn't Pope seen any factory then in the non-socialist, christian west, where workers were not different? He should have mentioned workers in the west too. At least, workers in Soviets were trying to speak their voice. Workers in the West had no voice, still not..

From theological point of view, Pope contradicted with St. Paul who had supported worker movements in Phisidian Antiochia where he gave his first speech during the worker revolts there and the result was workers were winner there. But, St Paul was a tent maker, a worker, unlike these religious scholars today, priests, imams, etc etc. who don't understand workers..

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Jul 30, 11, 00:03 #68
Hadn't Pope seen any factory then in the non-socialist, christian west, where workers were not different? Do you like this 'Pope's' last will?

NomadatNetThreads: 6 Posts: 1,492 Joined: Mar 28, 09 ♂	Jul 30, 11, 00:10 #69
Do you like this 'Pope's' last will? 50 minutes video. too long for me to watch. which minutes shall i watch?

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Dec 13, 11, 20:32 #70

pawian:

According to the UN, Poland is a developed country. It occupies the 41th position on the 42 country list.

It still has a long was to go but Poland is progressing. They say China is becoming wealthy but that's on overall GDP definitely not per capita and gross national income in which it lags behind with the 6th spot. The US is still the leader in GNP, GDP, and GNI. http://www.tiptoptens.com/2011/02/16/top-10-most-richest-countries-in- the-world-2011/

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Dec 15, 11, 08:27 #71
Chinese statistics are often unreliable... for some reasons they want to look poorer than they really are...

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Dec 15, 11, 10:02 #72

Wrocław Boy is correct.

pawian:

But don`t you understand that any attempts of artifical redesigning of our culture are harmful and have always ended with disaster, no matter if done in communist, fascist or democratic countries?

One could turn around and claim you don't seem to understand that the result we are presently at is not due to some "invisible hand," it is from attempts at redesigning society. Incidentally, what, in your opinion constitutes "artificial" design or redesign of a culture?

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Dec 15, 11, 12:06 #73

as the world's population continues to grow, leading to the associated problems with pollution, lack of water and food etc
there has to be a system in place to prevent consumerism from destroying the planet

Canada became the first country to legally pull out of the Kyoto Treaty yesterday
This is a green light for any other country to use the economic downturn as an excuse to renege upon their plans
to clean up their own back yard

Communism does not work as a system unless in an ant hill or a bee hive
Humans are not selfless

The idea of a group of fascist states competing with one another would be more likely to succeed though
George Orwell's 1984 might be around the corner

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,990 Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂	Dec 15, 11, 22:47 #74
hythorn: Humans are not selfless nor are we capable of understanding the self depends on the group- too many wannabe chiefs no matter where ya go.

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May 10, 12, 09:47 #75

pawian:

According to the UN, Poland is a developed country. It occupies the 41th position on the 42 country list.

According to Newsweek's quality-of-life survey of 2010, Poland occupies 29th position.

Radda Barnen, a Swedish child aid organization, classified countries according to the level of mother`s quality of life.

First places for Iceland, Norway, Sweden.

Next go Finnland, Denmark, Austrialia, Great Britain, New Zealand.

USA - 25

Poland - 28

Albania - 44

Last places for Niger - 165
Afghanistan - 164

http://www.rb.se/press/pressmeddelanden/Pages/Press_mammaindex_2012.as px

peterwegThreads: 35 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂	May 10, 12, 10:08 #76
pawian: First places for Iceland, Remove Iceland from the list. Its a country that invents statistics for promotional purposes. Luxembourg doesn't count either as half the working population don't live in country.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,415 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 10, 12, 10:13 #77
peterweg: Remove Iceland from the list. Its a country that invents statistics for promotional purposes. You mean that scandal with creative accounting a few years ago? http://www.parker-joseph.com/pjcjournal/2009/02/27/government-advise-c reative-accounting-to-cover-iceland-losses/ But the report was made by Swedes, not Icelanders.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,415 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	May 17, 12, 22:54 #78
I like these Polish contrasts:

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Edited by: peterweg May 18, 12, 00:19 #79

pawian:

You mean that scandal with creative accounting a few years ago?

Not just that. Speaking to people who live there, it becomes obvious they fake a lot of stuff. The women rights for instance, in fact the women complain like hell, the men compile whatever reports just eradicate the facts. Education is supposed to be of high quality, however its such a small country they can miss off fundamental subjects and not even realize. So they don't know how compound interest is supposed to work...

Its a country that had a Soviet style of command economy and now is almost a one party state. Laws may exist, but nobody even reads them, never mind applies them. For instance they borrowed billions from abroad and linked the debt to the exchange rate as they were foreign currency loans. When this blew up, they went back and found out these loans were illegal and had been for 10 years so they revoked them and robbed the foreign lenders.

Iceland is Mafia state.

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