School and stadium violence in Poland?

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Sep 16, 10, 13:57 #1

News reports have indicated a growth of both classroom and stadium violence in Poland over the past 2 decades of independence. What do you think are the root causes? If it is just aping the West, then who started it in the West? Was a time when both in communist Poland and the capitalist West a dad could take his young sons, even his entire family (if the missus tolerated footie or was even a fan) to a match without worrying for their safety. When did that change? Why?

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Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Sep 16, 10, 14:05 #2

There is no Milicja Obywatelska anymore. In the PRL you knew what the consequence would be.

You can find a lot of this in, for example, Russia and Brazil (and many other Southern American countries) as well. You can't blame Western Europe for this. It's a global phenomena.

The main problem is that the football violence is not limited to the stadium. You can find it in many other places as well. And it affects people who have no connection to football. It's has grown to a strong subculture.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 14:25 #3
Globalisation means that society is divided into two classes. Ruling class, with money, privet tutors, servants and bodyguards and all the rest:)as the lower class- plebs. It doesn't seems that way because society is in the middle of transition.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Sep 16, 10, 14:45 #4
Ironside: It doesn't seems that way because society is in the middle of transition. World poverty is falling. From 1970 to 2006, poverty fell by 86% in South Asia, 73% in Latin America, 39% in the Middle East, and 20% in Africa. However, it's still a huge problem in the world. Source

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 14:53 #5
SzwedwPolsce: World poverty is falling poverty has nothing to do with it!

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Edited by: jwojcie Sep 16, 10, 14:57 #6

SzwedwPolsce:

There is no Milicja Obywatelska anymore. In the PRL you knew what the consequence would be.

I was going to wrote the same. During a communist era one thing that was working was a terror machinery of a State. So if someone crossed a line and didn't have connections then he/she was f..cked... There was no other organized crime than state back then. Then 90' came which in the begining was an implosion of the state including security forces. In last years they started to recover some authority, people started to trust in their abilities again, but still in to many cases people just don't go to the police believing that it is not worth it.

It has not much to do with "western values" but much to do with rebuilding the state after communism implosion. Besides, for Poland "western" means for much part West Germany. What I heard and saw is rather quite an ordered society...

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,835 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 15:02 #7
Poland was never one for 'aping' the Third World, so I doubt if Brazil or Pakistan have made any impact on Poland's copycat popculture.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,835 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 15:28 #8
BTW, I had orginally intended to mention only school violence and threw in the stadium business as an afterthought. In your mind, does classroom unruliness and school violence in general have the same roots as stadium hooliganism?

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 15:45 #9
Polonius3: In your mind, does classroom unruliness and school violence in general have the same roots as stadium hooliganism? I'd say no. School violence results from the new, humane approach to pupils. Well, there's no MO in the stadiums either, as somebody already pointed out...

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 15:48 #10
nott: Well, there's no MO in the stadiums either, as somebody already pointed out... problem with a street or stadium violence is a very simple to solve,

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 16:01 #11
Ironside: problem with a street or stadium violence is a very simple to solve, I'm not syre. There's a problem with Polish police now, bad memories, the tradition of corruption and unjustified violence. Seems it needs time.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Sep 16, 10, 16:09 #12
nott: School violence results from the new, humane approach to pupils. It is odd that since teachers have lost the right to wallop students students have become so much more violent.

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Sep 16, 10, 16:22 #13

Harry:

It is odd that since teachers have lost the right to wallop students students have become so much more violent.

I wouldn't call it that strange.

They said kids are barbarians and need to be civilised. Some apparently barbaric ways seem to work for them. In my times it wasn't unusual to get a series of painful whacks on the palm with a wooden ruler. Drives the message in.

Nowadays teachers can just appeal and explain, and that in a restricted tone of voice. A teenager can successfully complain about being abused if a teacher shouts at him, whatever the misdemeanor.

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Sep 16, 10, 16:53 #14

nott:

Nowadays teachers can just appeal and explain, and that in a restricted tone of voice. A teenager can successfully complain about being abused if a teacher shouts at him, whatever the misdemeanor.

nowadays, in Poland, teachers give a mark/grade for behaviour. if the pupil gets a one he/she doesn't go to the next class/form.

when i was a lad in the uk the cane didn't stop me going to the next class/form.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 16, 10, 16:56 #15
Wroclaw: if the pupil gets a one he/she doesn't go to the next class/form. or the teacher goes to see the headmaster, and the grade is being revised.

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Sep 16, 10, 22:49 #16

Isn't it a bit neo-Marxist, crypto-Marxist or pseudo-Marxist to attribute everything to economcs? Poverty, unemployment, low pay, etc. are nothing new and come in go in cyclical fashion, but there was almost no stadium violence anywhere in the US or Europe during the first half of the 20th century. The first major incident I believe invovled an Everton match. And the blackboard jungle type school was also unknown. Interestingly both the Everton incident and the film 'Blackboard Jungle' appeared in the latter half of the 1950s when today's all-pervasive persmissive popculture first began rearing its head. Isn't family breakdown and the collapse of auhtorites the true root cause of society's growing violence? Before you answer, check this out:
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/causes_of_cr ime.pdf

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 18, 10, 00:32 #17
Polonius3: Isn't it a bit neo-Marxist, crypto-Marxist or pseudo-Marxist to attribute everything to economcs? Poverty, unemployment, low pay, etc. are nothing new Well, state becoming nanny not a state,expectations are growing, government should give this or that, fix that or other, plebs selling it votes for bread and games like in ancient Rome.

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