Sex after menopause in Poland - is it condoned by the Church?

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Feb 14, 12, 09:58 #1

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/02/13/146822713/why-catholic-grou ps-health-plans-say-no-to-contraceptives-yes-to-viagra

I realize that this thread will likely be taken down by the powers that be, but I am going to post it anyway (since this is supposedly a venue meant to foster the free exchange of ideas).

After reading the article, I have a question - is sex between elderly married couples condoned by the Catholic church? Since procreation is no longer possible after menopause, does the Vatican prohibit such couples from engaging in sexual activities? If not, can anyone explain the glaring hypocrisy? Thanks!

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 10:13 #2
BLS: does the Vatican prohibit such couples from engaging in sexual activities? No. BLS: If not, can anyone explain the glaring hypocrisy? No. The reason is that even the Vatican very unofficially admits the science behind the contraception ban is medieval and flawed but don't want to backtrack since it could be the thin end of the wedge that is enlightenment.

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Feb 14, 12, 10:38 #3

BLS:

If not, can anyone explain the glaring hypocrisy

OK - I'm not a practicing Catholic, but my mom and some friends are and we had plenty heated discussions on topic of sex within and outside marriage.
No - Catholic Church does not prohibit from sexual activity in menopause, simple because sex is not only for procreation, but also to maintain bond between the husband and wife. This means that as long as the couple are married, it is not sinful to have sex. Putting it this way, there is no hypocrisy. Contraception is banned because it interferes "with act of God when creating life". Note that "Catholic Roulette" - the most popular, calendar method is not banned (so it means that Catholics can actually have sex for pleasure and not only to procreate) ;-)

teflcatThreads: 6 Posts: 1,076 Joined: May 29, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 10:43 #4
How many children are there in the average Polish Catholic household? Don't worry too much about the power of the Church in Catholic bedrooms. Grown up people are not likely to take very much advice from people who don't know what they are talking about.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,478 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Feb 14, 12, 11:19 #5
sa11y: Contraception is banned because it interferes "with act of God when creating life" but speeds up the destruction of our planet, humm thats a bummer

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Feb 14, 12, 11:52 #6

I did a Google search about this topic and found very little information - however, I did come across a very "enlightening" Catholic website that invited questions from the flock. In one of the posts, a man wrote that his wife had had surgery which prevented traditional intercourse...he asked if it was acceptable for them to maintain their marital bond via mutual masturbation. The priest responded "no" and gave them no viable alternatives - explaining that sex was intended solely for the purpose of procreation. I felt quite sorry for this couple - however, I guess they chose to follow their beliefs.

My point? This priest seemed to intimate that sex was intended only for reproduction. I realize that this is only one example, but this guy receives his marching orders from Vatican City.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 11:57 #7
What the L stands for ?

sa11yThreads: 4 Posts: 191 Joined: Dec 12, 11 ♀	Feb 14, 12, 13:08 #8
Wroclaw Boy: but speeds up the destruction of our planet On the contrary I would say - contraception is good for the planet, because it's people that destroy the planet...

ukpolskaThreads: 51 Posts: 2,238 Joined: Oct 23, 06 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: ukpolska Feb 14, 12, 13:25 #9
It is probably not only condoned by the Church but in some areas is actually practiced by the Church. teflcat: How many children are there in the average Polish Catholic household?

BBmanThreads: - Posts: 459 Joined: Jan 4, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 16:25 #10
but speeds up the destruction of our planet, humm thats a bummer the population of the planet is not decreasing though. only the populations of european countries are....maybe this is what youre referring to.

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Feb 14, 12, 18:57 #11

Can someone explain the following: (in words of one syllable, I am a woman after all)

1. When exactly (at exactly what age) women should stop having sex?

2. Is the deadline the last period they have and after that - no more sex?

3. Who will monitor and report back to the Vatican that women have stopped having sex?

4. Why, if sex is only for procreation, is it ok for Catholic priests to have homosexual sex with young boys?

5. Why, if sex is supposedly to form a bond betweenman and woman, do Catholic priests have sex with women?

Answers on a postcard please.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 19:02 #12
terri: Answers on a postcard please. the reason that women are not big in theology ? You just answered that question yourself!

terriThreads: 1 Posts: 385 Joined: May 3, 09 ♀	Feb 14, 12, 19:12 #13
Ironside: terri: Answers on a postcard please. the reason that women are not big in theology ? You just answered that question yourself! You obviously didn't get the irony. Answers on a postcard means - that there is no answer. No excuses. No nothing. I would like a Catholic priest to be by my side 24 hours a day just to make sure that I don't do anything I shouldn't.

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Feb 14, 12, 19:18 #14

terri:

Can someone explain the following: (in words of one syllable, I am a woman after all)

1. When exactly (at exactly what age) women should stop having sex?
hopefully never

2. Is the deadline the last period they have and after that - no more sex?
no

3. Who will monitor and report back to the Vatican that women have stopped having sex?
not me

4. Why, if sex is only for procreation, is it ok for Catholic priests to have homosexual sex with young boys?
Sex is not only for procreation.

5. Why, if sex is supposedly to form a bond betweenman and woman, do Catholic priests have sex with women?
Never truly understood this myself even though I am Catholic. But I do have a few guesses.
1. It is the ultimate sacrifice for a man (especially a young man)
2. It keeps the priest from choosing the well being of his mate over the rest of the church.
3. Ideally a priest is to think of the community first not take what they can from it.

Answers on a postcard please.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,787 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 19:19 #15
terri: You obviously didn't get the irony. Answers on a postcard means - that there is no answer. No excuses. No nothing. I did but OP post is to put it Simply -nonsensical. Even his moniker is telling BS, I just don't know what the L stands for! And then you come out of the blue and post some odd five points that make as much sense as OP does. I was like - hey are you well ?

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Feb 14, 12, 19:47 #16

There is no hypocrisy; only a misunderstanding of what the chuch teaches. There is this fallacy that circulates that the church teaches that sex has one, and only one, purpose, and that is to procreate. While that is certainly a part of what the church teaches, it also teaches that sex is a unitive act. By unitive act it means that the conjugal act unites the man and woman in a very intimate and, even, mysterious way. It is through the sexual act that a man and woman give themselves completely to the other; another terminology for this is "self-donation." And, this leads to why contraception is a grave sin, it inhibits not only procreation but the free donation of spouses. In other words, when a couple contracept they say to one another I give to you only a part of me--not the whole me. This is utilitarianism and contrary to the sacrament of marriage.

Jphn Paul II wrote very eloquently about this while he was Archbishop of Krakow in a book entitled "Love and Responsibility." He built on this later during his pontificate and developed a theology that is popularly known as the Theology of the Body. "Love and Responsibility" is pretty straightforward and accessible, while "Theology of the Body" is, although still accessible, not as easy.

Anyway, is sex after menopause (in Poland or anywhere else, for that matter) condoned by the Church? Absolutely yes!

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 19:56 #17
AntV: Anyway, is sex after menopause (in Poland or anywhere else, for that matter) condoned by the Church? Absolutely yes! And contraception, rather than being AntV: a grave sin (though for the last 40 years since the Council there have only been sins, none of this 'grave' stuff) is increasingly condoned by the Church.

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Feb 14, 12, 19:57 #18

BLS:

My point? This priest seemed to intimate that sex was intended only for reproduction. I realize that this is only one example, but this guy receives his marching orders from Vatican City.

The priest is mistaken, if that is indeed what he said.

Curious: how would you know the guy recieves his marching orders from Vatican City? What exactly do you mean by that, i.e. priests receive daily memos from the Holy See, etc.?

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Edited by: AntV Feb 14, 12, 20:08 #19

JonnyM:

And contraception, rather than being
AntV: a grave sin(though for the last 40 years since the Council there have only been sins, none of this 'grave' stuff) is increasingly condoned by the Church.

It certainly has not increasingly been condoning artificial contraception--sure, there are those in the Church who have, but they are not magesterial.

Since the Coucil, there still are mortal and venial classifications of sins, there are some theologians who have tried to promote that a sin is a sin is a sin, but the magisterial teaching rejects it forthright--just look at the new Catechism put out 30 years after Vatican II, mortal and venial are still being distinguished.

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Feb 14, 12, 20:15 #20

AntV:

there still are mortal and venial classifications of sins

Pastorally there no longer are. Only whacko Tridentinists still bother.

AntV:

It certainly has not increasingly been condoning artificial contraception--sure, there are those in the Church who have

The two parts of that sentence contradict each other.

Anyway, artificial contraception is quite legal in Poland. Perhaps you'd prefer the law here to reflect the RCC's 'magesterial' teaching?

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Feb 14, 12, 20:45 #21

JonnyM:

Pastorally there no longer are. Only whacko Tridentinists still bother

What do you mean by "pastorally there no longer are"? Tridentines aren't the only ones who still bother--it is a magisterial teaching; therefore, it's normative and orthodox.

JonnyM:

The two parts of that sentence contradict each other.

Not really, I'm making a distinction between an individual Catholic with an opinion and the magisterial teaching of the Church (whether one agrees with it or not). Just because Father Krawczyk says go ahead contracept, doesn't mean that's the official Church teaching. It's like me saying I should be able to get loaded and drive. Sure, i can do it, but that doesn't change the law in Ohio that says it's a punishable crime, even though I, an Ohioan, think, do, or say otherwise.

JonnyM:

Perhaps you'd prefer the law here to reflect the RCC's 'magesterial' teaching?

Well, I think contraception is the root to many of our social ills. Now, I'm not too stupid and square to realize that that statement is not popular in this age of relativism and radical individualism, and that many consider such to be so un-modern and medieval and plain idiotic; but, nevertheless I stand by it. So, yeah, it'd be nice if the law in Poland or wherever reflected the RCC's magisterial teaching for nothing other than a healthier society. However, I do not believe in the civil codification of ecclesiastical law. Rather, I support the open and free exchange of ideas to promote good government, and the Church has many good things to say and should be a part of the discourse.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 21:42 #22
I mean exactly that. Those artificial distinctions between categories of don are a thing of the past. And planned parenthood is fortunately condoned more and more, especially since the root of the original objection is a false Augustinian interpretation o of medical science.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 21:55 #23
'Sin' not 'don'. I'm using Swype.

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Feb 14, 12, 22:07 #24

Can someone explain the following: (in words of one syllable, I am a woman after all)

1. When exactly (at exactly what age) women should stop having sex?

That is up to women on how she feel during menopause. Some are having problems and some don't. There isn't any age to stop. It is up to women.Women do love having sex and it really release our tensions. It is fun to have sex.

2. Is the deadline the last period they have and after that - no more sex?

That is false. Some of women have sex during their periods and anytime. There is no reason to stop having sex. Women are still having sex after 50 thru 90 yrs.

3. Who will monitor and report back to the Vatican that women have stopped having sex?

No one monitors you but God is in heaven and watching all of us. Pope have no business to tell us what to do.

4. Why, if sex is only for procreation, is it OK for Catholic priests to have homosexual sex with young boys?

Having sex for pleasure anytime. Some couples wanted to have children.
Priests shouldn't have sex with minors. They should keep it to themselves and should have sex with men their ages but not minors.

5. Why, if sex is supposedly to form a bond betweenman and woman, do Catholic priests have sex with women?

I believe some of Catholic priests are having sex secretly somewhere. Sex should be pleasures for man and woman.

My advices for all of you to enjoy your sex lifes.

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Feb 14, 12, 22:22 #25

JonnyM:

I mean exactly that. Those artificial distinctions between categories of don are a thing of the past. And planned parenthood is fortunately condoned more and more, especially since the root of the original objection is a false Augustinian interpretation o of medical science.

What is artificial about the distinction? What original objection? What false Augustinian interpretation of medical science? How is the original objection based on the false Augustinian interpretation and how does that relate to the moral teaching of the Church?

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Feb 15, 12, 01:14 #26

.3 Who will monitor and report back to the Vatican that women have stopped having sex?
No one monitors you but God is in heaven and watching all of us. Pope have no business to tell us what to do....SO WHY DO they bother????

4. Why, if sex is only for procreation, is it OK for Catholic priests to have homosexual sex with young boys?
Priests shouldn't have sex with minors. BUT THEY DO.
They should keep it to themselves and should have sex with men their ages but not minors...WHAT? Catholic priests should have sex?????

5. Why, if sex is supposedly to form a bond betweenman and woman, do Catholic priests have sex with women?
I believe some of Catholic priests are having sex secretly somewhere. I know a lot of women who have had children by Catholic priests - but that's obvuiously ok.

6.Sex should be a pleasure for a man and a woman.
HELLO? So what's happened to the people who have homosexual, lesbian and other preferences? Are they FORBIDDEN to have sex?

sa11yThreads: 4 Posts: 191 Joined: Dec 12, 11 ♀	Feb 15, 12, 10:33 #27
terri: HELLO? So what's happened to the people who have homosexual, lesbian and other preferences? Are they FORBIDDEN to have sex? According to Catholic Church - yes

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 15, 12, 12:32 #28
terri: do Catholic priests have sex with women? Some do, either illicitly or within marriage. terri: So what's happened to the people who have homosexual, lesbian and other preferences? Are they FORBIDDEN to have sex? Yes. The Roman Catholic Church has never managed to stay outside the bedroom door.

teflcatThreads: 6 Posts: 1,076 Joined: May 29, 11 ♂	Feb 15, 12, 13:46 #29
AntV: So, yeah, it'd be nice if the law in Poland or wherever reflected the RCC's magisterial teaching for nothing other than a healthier society A child every year and the woman exhausted, house-bound and old at forty?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 15, 12, 13:56 #30
teflcat: the woman exhausted, house-bound and old at forty? Sounds ideal from their point of view: if she's stuck in the house she can certainly help her daughters with child care, thus enabling them to pump out even more babies (and thus increasing the chances that the priest will have at least a couple of suitable altar boys to pick between).

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