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The Tao in Poland


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Des EssientesThreads: 11
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 Aug 23, 11, 22:03    #1
Around three-thousand years ago in China as civilization with its complications began to arise rural folk noticed that the newly minted urbanites, and other innovators, were losing their way and so the Taoist philosophy became verbalized as a corrective. Poland is a younger country than China but I wonder if she too has her own Taoism. The following from Chuang Tzu will give the reader an example of Taoist philosophy in China:
Then along comes Po Lo "I'm good at handling horses!" he announces, and proceeds to singe them, shave them, pare them, brand them, bind them with martingale and crupper, tie them up in stable and stall. By this time two or three out of ten horses have died. He goes on to starve them, make them go thirsty, race them, prance them, pull them into line, force them to run side by side, in front of them the worry of bit and rein, behind them the terror of whip and crop. By this time over half the horses have died.
When horses live on the plain, they eat grass and drink from the streams. Pleased, they twine their necks together and rub; angry, they turn back to back and kick. This is all horses know how to do. But if you pile poles and yokes on them and line them up in crossbars and shafts, then they will learn to snap the crossbars, break the yoke, rip the carriage top, champ the bit, and chew the reins. Thus horses learn how to commit the worst kinds of mischief. This is the crime of Po Lo.

One may object that criminalizing horse trainers is anything but Polish, as Poland arose and flourished upon the backs of her trained horses, but people can be attuned with the Tao even though they live in a land that has embraced some unnatural practices. There is an example of Polish Taoism to be found in the writing of Henryk Sienkiewicz and it occurs upon horseback no less. It is an account of the Achilles of the Polish Iliad, Pan Wolodyjowski, when he rode forth and fought in the melees in which a small number of elite Polish fighters and small number of the best and bravest of their opponents, save for the dishonorable Swedes, would engage in before the commencement of the main battle-- a tradition which Pan Zagloba claimed the Poles learned long ago from the Iranians. In these clashes, being watched intently by the frontlines of the opposing armies, Pan Wolodyjowski, who is based on a real historical personage of that name, would ride up to his opponent and, unlike the rest of the warriors slashing away in a grandiose manner, he would be seen to make a slight barely perceptible movement with his saber and his opponent would then fall slain. This is an example of the Tao of fencing. The Tao is the easy and the humble way to success in life’s endeavors. Would anyone else be so kind to provide us with other examples of the Tao in Poland?

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 Aug 23, 11, 22:06    #2
The Tao is the easy and the humble way to success in life’s endeavors.


Would you say that the Tao includes boasting online about one's sexual exploits and drug taking?
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Aug 23, 11, 22:54    #3
Would you say that the Tao includes boasting online about one's sexual exploits and drug taking?

I do not know, but I am certain that posing a non-sequitor question about "online boasting" in a thread that is asking for descriptions of Polish folk traditions that are in accordance with Taoist philosophy is contemptable.
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 Aug 23, 11, 23:34    #4
On this forum, the mods are very close to the nature of 'practising non-ado'.
Would you say that the Tao includes boasting online about one's sexual exploits and drug taking?

Being in accord with the Tao has been compared to the same state as being happily drunk. It's been seen as a rebellion against Confucian uptight principles and similar to Shakespeare when he said 'there is no good or bad, just thinking that makes it seem so'.
My favorite line in Tao Te Ching - 'Those who speak, do not know. Those who know, do not speak'. Of course, Lao-Tzu spoke!

When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.
Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,

TTC
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 Aug 23, 11, 23:37    #5
Being in accord with the Tao has been compared to the same state as being happily drunk.

Truly, Chuang-Tzu pointed out the fact that a drunkard in a carriage wreck ends up unhurt whilst a sober man is injured because the former is in accord with the Tao.
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 Aug 24, 11, 00:19    #6
And witness why China made zero advances in all that time....................it would be lovely to wander around in a perpetual state of bliss,but soon everyone would be dead,ultimate Nirvana maybe but as far from the essence of humanity as one can get.
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 Aug 24, 11, 00:36    #7
Nirvana

This is a Buddhist not a Taoist concept.
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Edited by: isthatu2  Aug 24, 11, 00:39    #8
Thought it was a 80s/90s Seatle grunge band myself............
ps,yes, quite aware where the term Nirvana comes from ta very much.......seriously, you aint the only person in the world with an interest in other cultures,some of us have actually lived amongst them and gone beyond idol theorising :)
As modalfini said, 'Those who speak, do not know. Those who know, do not speak'...........maybe ruminate on that a while dessi.....coz you dont half do a lot of talking..:)
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 Aug 24, 11, 01:02    #9
And witness why China made zero advances in all that time....................it would be lovely to wander around in a perpetual state of bliss,but soon everyone would be dead,ultimate Nirvana maybe but as far from the essence of humanity as one can get.


It was more relating to an inward state of acceptance - que sera sera, and to my musings, regarded how the people should be lead to be imbibed with confidence like being coked-up or merrily drunk, not literally stoned on opiates, in a community where there wasn't a god looking over one's welfare, or the self-righteousness of those who believe they are chosen with the Word. The Tao(as Mother) was the Great Nurturer. Not 100%, but I think the conversation between Confucius and Lao-Tzu was along the lines that Confucius' rigid social framework, like Victorian middle-class manners, would turn people into fakes, according to Lao-Tzu. It's a misreading to take the Tao's(as hidden virtue) exposition as an excuse for laziness. To my ken Lao-Tzu was against searching for Nirvana and considered such striving as vanity(which it is). I just dug this out of a web page from Tao-Te Ching -
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

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 Aug 24, 11, 01:10    #10
Well,Ive got to admit, you are all sparking an interest in this tao thingy again....it was something that briefly came on my rader a couple of years ago but,not living in a mountainside retreat its easy for one to get distracted.
Once Im stuffed full of chaos theory I shall investigate further.
In laymans terms its go with the flow?
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 Aug 24, 11, 01:16    #11
It's a misreading to take the Tao's(as hidden virtue) exposition as an excuse for laziness.

Indeed wu wei is "non-action" but is not abstaining totally from action it is allowing oneself to become passive and thus able to respond spontaneously and effortlessly in a sitiuation that requires action. Thus Pan Wołodyjowski could ride up to a dangerous fearsome scimitar swinging Turk, or a massive spear brandishing Cossack, and dispatch him in an instant in an effortless manner.
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Edited by: f stop  Aug 24, 11, 01:18    #12
Would anyone else be so kind to provide us with other examples of the Tao in Poland?

peeing wherever you stand? ;)
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 Aug 24, 11, 01:23    #13
peeing wherever you stand?

Yes, F-Stop, the Tao is indeed about not suppressing natural bodily functions because of social conventions.
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 Aug 24, 11, 01:31    #14
Really?!? I hope my son does not find out about this. ;)
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Edited by: modafinil  Aug 24, 11, 03:21    #15
In laymans terms its go with the flow?

Uncannily so. The Tao-Te Ching describes the Tao as being like flowing water never stagnating. There's a good translation by John Wu (not the movie maker) which alludes to many western literary authors and other biblical twinnings. To mix metaphors , much like chaos theory you cannot be certain how the cookie will crumble, so take a bite before it does. Alan Watts - Tao: The watercourse way, is a personal recommendation.
BTW it did inspire much art even martial, if not tech advancement. Bruce Lee has a book with Tao in the title, remember 'fighting without fighting'?

FS: peeing wherever you stand? ;)
DE: Yes, F-Stop, the Tao is indeed about not suppressing natural bodily functions because of social conventions.
FS: Really?!? I hope my son does not find out about this. ;)

You can display your Tao by clipping him 'round the ear. :) Children at play together are often used as an example of perfect Tao.
A modern lecturer of Taoist principles said, "when you feel the need to fart; just fart!"
Though keep in mind that Taoism sprung up to temper Confucianism, as stated earlier. It can be viewed as the the Ying to the Tao's Yang.

Indeed wu wei is "non-action" but is not abstaining totally from action it is allowing oneself to become passive and thus able to respond spontaneously and effortlessly in a sitiuation that requires action.

In the same sense as a crouching tiger hides a dragon?? As mention of B Lee above.

I reckon this topic is a difficult one due to the nature of Hidden Virtue. My final quote -
When his work is done,
the people say,
"Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!"

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 Aug 24, 11, 05:02    #16
The Tao-Te Ching describes the Tao as being like flowing water never stagnating.

Oh bugger,I guess my amazing bit of,ahem,herbal induced philosophy while watching the Jim Al Kalili doc' wasnt quite as origional as I thought then.....was going to mention rivers and stuff,oh,I did consider though that Tao maybe the "easy way" but it is not always the "natural way" or rather natures way as,without the battle against the flow of the river the salmon would not be the same creature.............glasshoppah.
Yes,my "primal" understanding of tao,and thus my condensing to "go with the flow" funnily enough comes from having been a prem baby ( bare with me ;) ) and a sickly child who,with a mum inspired by TVs Kung Fu (and a crush on ole Kwai Chan by all accounts ) enrolled me in Tae Kwon Do at 6 years old,always being a slight child it was instinctive to learn that its easier and more effective to use their energy against them rather than try and use my own :)
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 Aug 25, 11, 02:48    #17
Many of the legends about the late 17th and early 18th Century robber from the Tatras Mountains whom the Poles call Jerzy (or Juro or Jurko) Janosik have themes that are found somewhat in philosophical Taoism and which are ubiquitous in popular religious Taoism. Chuang Tzu speaks of a holy man on Ku-She Mountain:
There is nothing that can harm this man. Though flood waters pile up to the sky, he will not drown. Though a great drought melts metal and stone and scorches the earth and hills, he will not be burned.

Not unlike Chuang-Tzu’s invincible holy man Jerzy Janosik is said to have been impervious to bullets, arrows and wounds of all sorts. So too Jerzy Janosik was able to move about from one place to another faster than any other human being could, not unlike the sage Lieh Tzu, also mentioned by Chuang-Tzu, who “could ride the wind and go soaring around with cool and breezy skill.” Jerzy Janosik’s magical resistance to harm is said to have been gained by his possession of a magic herb, which harkens to popular Taoist beliefs in the alchemical properties of herbs, and other substances, which can supposedly lengthen one’s life even to the point of making one immortal. Jerzy Janosik’s robbing from the rich and giving to the poor is also very much in the mold of popular Taoist swordsman heroes in China, wherein religious Taoism has attracted the adherence of the peasant population far more than either Confucianism or Buddhism ever did. Jerzy Janosik is also said to have had three magical accoutrements, an alpenstock, a shirt and a belt, that were gifted him by three witches and the belief in magic and witchery is also well established amongst religious Taoists. Finally the legend of Jerzy Janosik’s demise can be seen as an example of philosophical Taoism’s indifference to death. Having been betrayed by a woman, who burnt his talismans, and captured by the Austro-Hungarian authorities, as the leader of a robber band his mode of execution was to be hung from the gallows by an iron hook driven into his left side, but on the gallows Jerzy Janosik was offered a pardon should he agree to join the army. Jerzy Janosik is purported to have said “"If you have baked me so you should also eat me!" and then he jumped on to the hook.
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 Aug 25, 11, 03:34    #18
the Tao is indeed about not suppressing natural bodily functions because of social conventions.


So in other words, it's about drug taking, unrestricted sex and having **** all manners?

Might do wonders for the ego, but terrible for the social life. I can see why you promote it.
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Aug 25, 11, 06:04    #19
So in other words, it's about drug taking, unrestricted sex and having **** all manners?

Might do wonders for the ego, but terrible for the social life. I can see why you promote it

I am not promoting anything. Delphiandomine you are too stupid to understand Taoism so don't even try. Accordance with the Tao is about transcending the ego and you with your petty attempts to "score points" against other posters are obviously never going to get there. You are like one of the horses mentioned in the OP except your misery leads you to troll on this forum rather than break your yoke.
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 Aug 25, 11, 09:33    #20
So in other words, it's about drug taking, unrestricted sex and having **** all manners?


If that's your natural inclination, go for it and with all thy might. Why pretend to be someone you are not? I noticed you stooped to insulting someone's grandmother, but you kept to the rules of the forum as it wasn't a personal insult, so hey, you're a well mannered, abiding gentleman. And, you followed the Tao and showed you're true colour.
I enjoy a drink and an occasional spliff with buddies. However, being in these mind-altering induced states is ipso facto unnatural. It's not a guide for dummies on what to do or not regarding social order. It's always been made clear that the man of inferior intelligence will laugh when they hear of the Tao, while the average, consider it, the superior are with it.

There's a Buddhist saying, 'When a finger points to the moon, an idiot looks at the finger'
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 Aug 25, 11, 11:26    #21
Delphiandomine you are too stupid to understand Taoism so don't even try.


Too stupid?

I mean - have you checked the spelling of your username recently? Stupid is as stupid does, and all that.
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 Aug 25, 11, 12:04    #22
Here's an example,lap it up des......... The Polish Jewish population in the eastern lands,bent with the wind and dealt with the soviets in a Tao way.............
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Aug 25, 11, 16:44    #23
have you checked the spelling of your username recently?

I did indeed transpose an "i" and an "e" when creating my user name to distinguish it a bit from that of Joris Huysmann's literary character in his seminal novel Au Rebours. Harping upon the spelling of my username, in a thread that asks for examples of Taoism in Poland, is yet an another example of your stupidity and your pettiness.
The Polish Jewish population in the eastern lands,bent with the wind and dealt with the soviets in a Tao way

At least you've finally tried to post something on topic in this thread Isthatu. Your previous posts here have been centered around yourself quote=isthatu2]a sickly child who,with a mum inspired by TVs Kung Fu[/quote] and not Taoism in Poland. As for your example I am not sure that the Polish Jews who willingly served the Soviets in Poland are exemplars of Taoism. Lao-Tzu when he realized the king, to whom he was an advisor, was becoming a petty tyrant, opted to leave his service. When he reached the edge of the kingdom, a boarder guard desirous of wisdom, refused to let him go until after Lao-Tzu had sat down and wrote the Tao-Te-Ching.
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 Aug 25, 11, 18:52    #24
I don't find that the Tao is discussed here. In Japan, yes. They call it kao, or face. It's important not to be caught insulting your boss as it disrupts the natural order of things.
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 Aug 25, 11, 18:59    #25
Seanus, in Japan the Tao is called Do. This thread doesn't ask for examples of discussion of the Chinese Tao in Poland, but rather for examples of Poland's own homegrown Taoism such as Pan Wołodyjowski's swordsmanship and the legend of Jerzy Janosik.
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 Aug 25, 11, 21:10    #26
The Tao that can be chatted about is not the real Tao...
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 Aug 25, 11, 22:01    #27
The Tao that can be chatted about is not the real Tao...


That reminds me of the Polish born semanticist A.Korzybski who famously said 'The map is not the territory'. Perhaps he was teaching of the unnameable Tao.
From Wikipedia said by A.K.
Individual people in fact do not in general have access to absolute knowledge of reality, but in fact only have access to a set of beliefs they have built up over time, about reality. So it is considered important to be aware that people's beliefs about reality and their awareness of things (the "map") are not reality itself or everything they could be aware of ("the territory")

The first minute or three

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 Aug 26, 11, 00:03    #28
The Tao that can be chatted about is not the real Tao...


Sure seems that way from what I can gleen reading modafinil's interesting and obviously studied posts

Poland's own homegrown Taoism

Lols,an oxymoron,from a moron..............
At least you've finally tried to post something on topic in

Dessi..........You really are the most condesending d!ck I think Ive ever come across,my god man, just what is the big chip you carry round on your shoulders?
You must spend hours cutting and pasting this guff you dredge up on an almost daily basis......such an unsuppressed despiration to prove to "the world" just how gosh darn smart you are points at some serious inner tension. I loved the part where you spoke about "how much people enjoy my prose", yeah, ya think?
Is your pm inbox chock full of admiring thanks for your propensity to write in a way that was old fashioned in the 1810s?
Again,i ask,have you ever had an origional thought or idea or do you turn to Schiller or Engels for instructions on how to take a dump in the morning?
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 Aug 26, 11, 17:46    #29
the Polish born semanticist A.Korzybski who famously said 'The map is not the territory'.

Truly Modafinil this statement by Korzybski is an example of homegrown Polish Taoism. The inadequacy of words for explaining the way is beautifully explained in the following story from Chuang-Tzu:
Duke Hwan of Khi, first in his dynasty,
sat under his canopy reading his philosophy.
And Phien the wheelwright was out in the yard
making a wheel.

Phien laid aside hammer and chisel,
climbed the steps
and said to duke Hwan,
“May I ask you, Lord,
what is this you are reading?”

Said the duke: “The experts, the authorities.”
Phien asked: “Alive or dead?”
The duke said: “Dead, a long time.”
“Then,” said the wheelwright,
“you are only reading the dirt they left behind.”

The duke replied, “What do you know about it?
You are only a wheelwright.
You had better give me a good explanation
or else you must die.”

The wheelwright said,
“Let us look at the affair from my point of view.
When I make wheels, if i go easy they fall apart,
and if I am too rough they don’t fit.
But if I am neither too easy nor too violent
they come out right,
and the work is what I want it to be.

“You cannot put this in words,
you just have to know how it is.
I cannot even tell my own son exactly how it is done,
and my own son cannot learn it from me.
Se here I am, seventy years old, still making wheels!

The men of old took all they really knew
with them to the grave.
And so, Lord, what you are reading there
is only the dirt they left behind them.”



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 Aug 26, 11, 19:18    #30
You really are the most condesending d!ck I think Ive ever come across,my god man, just what is the big chip you carry round on your shoulders?

This thread is about the Tao in Poland it is addressed towards people who know something about Chinese Taoist philosophy and religion as well as Polish philosophy, literature, and folklore and can thus expose instances of identity between the two. Istahtu, by your own admission you know next to nothing about Taoism.
it was something that briefly came on my rader a couple of years ago

So, "rader-man", why are you posting on this thread? I ask not because I have a chip on my shoulders, but because I am interested in this thread's subject, and as for my supposedly being "condesending" it seems to me that it is you who carry a chip on your shoulders. When you mistakenly characterized Taoism as a quest for "ultimate Nirvana" in post #6 and I pointed out that nirvana is not a Taoist concept your reply was:
seriously, you aint the only person in the world with an interest in other cultures,some of us have actually lived amongst them and gone beyond idol theorising

This is a non-sequitor that displays your shoulder chip in a glaring light (as well as making the reader laugh at you for using "idol" when you meant "idle"). Where did I claim that I am the only person in the world with an interest in other cultures? The fact that I started this thread proves that I believe that there are others on this forum that share this interest.
such an unsuppressed despiration to prove to "the world" just how gosh darn smart you are points at some serious inner tension.

Isthatu, this thread is not about me. It is about exposing an interesting philosophy that was made explicit in China long ago but whose insights can be found in the thought and traditions of other places all around the world and since this is a Polish forum I am asking for its Polish manifestations.
I loved the part where you spoke about "how much people enjoy my prose", yeah, ya think?

I have made no such claim regarding the reception of my prose.
Is your pm inbox chock full of admiring thanks for your propensity to write in a way that was old fashioned in the 1810s?

I have never opted to receive personal messages from the other posters on this forum. As for my style of writing I will admit that my vocabulary is probably more extensive than is typical in this day and age, but this is not something deliberately affected on my part, it has come naturally to me since I was a youth. That being said, my prose is not nearly as florid as that which was typical in the 18th Century as you mistakenly claim.
have you ever had an origional thought or idea

I honestly don't know. Perhaps there really is nothing new under the sun. In any event this thread is not asking for novelty. It is asking for examples of the Tao in Poland. If you have any please provide them. Otherwise keep being the angry little man that can't spell because it does at least give the reader some laughs.


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