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Whom do the Polish people hate more: Germans or Russians?


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hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,654
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Nov 28, 11, 12:05    #631
Foreigner4:
that is not the reason why. If the Germans want to feel a collective responsibility then that's their decision.

And how else do the Germans do that except through the actions of the state which represents them, just as it did in WWII.
Foreigner4:
Until otherwise proven, ww2 isn't up for debate

I see, straight from the David Irving school of history.
Foreigner4:
I never stated that.

No, but that is exactly what your ideas imply and that is the logical end step of your belief, perhaps your'e to stupid too realize it.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Foreigner4  Nov 28, 11, 21:33    #632
hague1cmaeron:
According to your belief the Germans should not apologize full stop.

It's like you're purposely being stupid. When I say "Germany or Russia didn't do harm to Poland" what I'm saying is neither Germany, Russia nor Poland are set individuals. Some 10 year-old kid in Russia didn't have anything to do with hurting anyone in Poland or anywhere else. Yet that kid is Russia. A 32 year old assembly worker- should he feel guilt? What about an au-pair living abroad? Should she feel guillt? Should that 10-year old feel a sense of guilt? The guilty should feel guilt and no one else. If you can't digest that then you've no business being in this conversation.
No that's your argument using the terminology you defend.
hague1cmaeron:
No, but that is exactly what your ideas imply and that is the logical end step of your belief, perhaps your'e to stupid too realize it.

The very conclusion I wrote is where the terminology you use will lead you to. That's not on me punk, that's your problem. If you don't like it then change your way of communicating.
hague1cmaeron:
And how else do the Germans do that except through the actions of the state which represents them, just as it did in WWII.
That's none of my business, the only thing I objected to then as I do now is to speak about any entire society of people as one singular entity. It's a stupid way to communicate complex ideas for stupid people- I can see why it appeals to you. What I find utterly exasperating is that you actually fail to see or deny seeing the messed up conclusions one can logically come up with if we accept such oversimplifications.

Everything I've written has been in an effort to show you exactly what logical end YOU HAVE TO arrive at IF YOU USE THE TERMINOLOGY YOU'RE DEFENDING. I have only attacked the terminology for being inaccurate and overly simplistic.
Countries.
Aren't.
People.
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,862
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 11, 23:18    #633
Foreigner4:
Countries.
Aren't.
People.


that is correct though not at all practised in reality...just look in the youngest history...

regarding the thread my guess is that poles if you have to call it like that 'hate' more the germans...they made a real frakkin mess in pl...probably because of the closeness and the doktrine lebensraum im osten/slaves are untermenschen....
Curious1  Nov 29, 11, 03:37    #634
Hi!
First time poster. Great debate!
I want to know what you think of my friend; who thinks that even if in a powerful position Poland would never commit such mass killings, as Germany and Russia had done in the 20th century. Not necesarrily because some Poles in power might not want to, but because Poles would not stand for it. Are Poles that epic as my friend thinks. If so then the Germans and Russians would never understand so Poland shouldnt expect much. Comments?
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Nov 29, 11, 05:36    #635
Curious - good question and I don't know the real answer to it, no one does as it's a purely hypothetical exercise. My personal opinion is that Poles aren't different from Germans or from Russians however they comprise a highly individualistic society, one that prides itself in preserving old traditions and does not like to conform to "universal" thoughts of mind. (I'll leave out religion from this discussion)

The murderous "achievements" of the nazis and the communists were a result of two very deranged ideologies, two beliefs that fought and hated one another yet were eery similar if not identical. One murdered in the name of your race while the other did just the same in the name of your class.

Even though there were communist sympathizers in Poland the ideology had to be forced upon the majority of Poles, they never accepted it with open arms the way most Russians did. There have been atrocities committed by Poles, some better documented than others. However, I don't think Poles would ever be able to commit mass atrocities on the scale of the Russian and German atrocities because totalitarianism was then, and still is a very foreign subject to most Poles.
legendThreads: 9
Posts: 819
Joined: Apr 23, 11 ♂ 		 Nov 29, 11, 05:36    #636
Curious1:
Hi!
First time poster. Great debate!
I want to know what you think of my friend; who thinks that even if in a powerful position Poland would never commit such mass killings, as Germany and Russia had done in the 20th century. Not necesarrily because some Poles in power might not want to, but because Poles would not stand for it. Are Poles that epic as my friend thinks. If so then the Germans and Russians would never understand so Poland shouldnt expect much. Comments?


Would the Poles have done something like Hitler or Stalin/Lenin/Trotsky? I will say probably not but no one really knows.

However Poles done harm on smaller scales (Polish/Russian conflicts, Polish/Ukrainian conflicts, Polish/Czechs).

What would happen had Germany not invaded Poland? Would the Russians still invade? Would Poland try to gain more land?
No idea.

I have heard somewhere that Hitler had offered Poland (maybe it was Pi³sudski?) to attack Russia? With a person like Hitler in power even if Poland had gained more land in the east its possible the Germans would still want their Prussia land back.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,654
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Nov 29, 11, 09:01    #637
Curious1:
I want to know what you think of my friend; who thinks that even if in a powerful position Poland would never commit such mass killings

Poles do not have the same respect for authority and never have worshiped brute force the way the Germans and Russians have done. Having said that, what the Germans had done in WWII was out of character when looked from the perspective of their history about 2 to 3 centuries earlier.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 29, 11, 10:35    #638
hague:
...Having said that, what the Germans had done in WWII was out of character when looked from the perspective of their history about 2 to 3 centuries earlier.


I totally agree.
jadisThreads: -
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 31, 10 ♀ 		 Nov 29, 11, 11:44    #639
Poland was never interested in building an empire. Never had colonies. Polish goal was to keep their own territory and minding their own business.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,654
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Nov 29, 11, 11:49    #640
jadis:
Polish goal was to keep their own territory and minding their own business.

With a bit of expansion to the east every now and again(:
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,862
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Nov 29, 11, 17:28    #641
hague1cmaeron:
Having said that, what the Germans had done in WWII was out of character when looked from the perspective of their history about 2 to 3 centuries earlier.

yes. einzigartig brutal. disguise.

jadis:
Polish goal was to keep their own territory and minding their own business.

what is rather difficult in the sandwich position...
Curious1  Nov 30, 11, 05:34    #642
Thanks everyone for your replies! It really gives some perspective on the issue.
I have not lived in Europe for a long time now. I have no feel for how much hatred there is amongst Poles for either Germans or Russians. Although it does not sound like the hatred is prevailent amongst most.
alxmacThreads: 5
Posts: 43
Joined: Nov 29, 11 ♂ 		 Nov 30, 11, 06:58    #643
germans !

i like russia
slavic brothers
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: skysoulmate  Nov 30, 11, 11:39    #644
alxmac:
i like russia
slavic brothers


Yeah right, Poland and Russia are "brothers" just like Abel and Cain were. Cain, what a great "brother" to have.

:(
Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57
Posts: 5,478
Joined: Jul 3, 09  Pictures: 2  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		 Dec 3, 11, 21:27    #645
Ogorki:
Someone mentioned that Bratwurst Boy was not here anymore? That's a shame. Got noone to wipe the floor with now :(

It wasn't easy to wipe the floor with him, and in all his posts and years i never recalled you doing it! So what are you actually talking about?

skysoulmate:
On the ATP forum he even claimed that Germans caused more suffering than the Russians did. I disagreed with him but am bringing this up to show that this German you like to stomp on isn't as devilish as you claim. He's proud to be a German and rightfully so. I don't always agree with him but am yet to see this nazi boy mentality so many here think he espouses. Nothing could be further from the truth.

yeah well you didn't know him that well. When it came to German supremacy there was no other - for him.

hague1cmaeron:
You probably don't realize that before he was bratwurst boy, he used to go by a different name and some of his earlier posts weren't all that pleasant to read.

Exactly, the guy totally chilled out once he realized this was a place he actually liked to hang around at, HELL hes now even a moderator on a Polish forum and he doesnt even mention the war anymore. Hes a completely changed man, mind you the Germans were always a bit prone to persuasion.

southern:
He was very irritant and provocative eg you Poles provided us the battleground to fight against real soldiers like the Russians etc.

Absolutely, he may be the greatest achievement PF has ever produced. PF totally turned him from a die hard Neo Nazi brain washed victim into an actually there are two sides to this story.

I always kind of liked the guy personally.
VelundThreads: 1
Posts: 417
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 4, 11, 19:47    #646
skysoulmate:
You mean the way you like to bend over for the rusky?


You mean that it is the only possible life style tor anyone residing between two superpowers? ;)
Polish Pride  Dec 15, 11, 23:10    #647
I am polish and we are not Greece. Germany has done nothing to advance our economy. Poland has built its own status. So I would appreciate the fact you repect our independance. The German Pope is trying to be like the POLISH Pope so he can cover his Nazi history.
tow.stalin  Dec 16, 11, 14:15    #648
we don't not hate them. we don't trust them at all, maybe with exception of our diplomacy minister ;)

having germans in my family i have made my own proverb:

if german gives you 1 euro, it means that he already stole 2 euro from you ;)

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