Do you think women have the place they deserve in modern Polish society ?

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Edited by: mephias Apr 3, 11, 13:34 #1

As a foreigner living in Poland, I had the impression there is a slight imbalance how women are assessed in Poland (examples can also be seen on PF). This may be true for most countries I wonder what do you think about the subject,

- Are there positive or negative discrimination against women ?
- Do you think feminine attributes (beauty ) creates unfair assessment ( for example in a job application) or it is overly put forward when it comes to women ?
- Are there positive or negative differences on subject in other countries you have been/lived so far ?
- If you think there is something wrong what you would change first if you had political power to do it.

I thought about subject after watching this.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,959 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 14:16 #2
Women in Poland are the dominant sex probably.

PolishNutjobThreads: 1 Posts: 101 Joined: Mar 9, 08 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 15:30 #3
"As a foreigner living in Poland, I had the impression there is a slight imbalance how women are assessed in Poland ... " Foreigners tend to validly assess Polish women in Poland. Native Polaks' assessments are skewed because they lack the perspective to evaluate Polish women in a rational, contemplative manner.

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Apr 3, 11, 15:39 #4

mephias:

Are there positive or negative discrimination against women?

Well, let's see - the retiring age for men in Poland is 65, for women it's 60. Life expectancy for a man is 72,
for a woman it's 80. So, it looks like women live, on average, 8 years longer than men, and retire 5 years
earlier. Just an example. Generally, I think that women in Poland enjoy all the rights and freedoms that
women in other European countries do.

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,228 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 15:42 #5
southern: Women in Poland are the dominant sex probably. omg,Im agreeing with southern ! :) The impression I get is definatly that much like many places men like to say they are in charge but women tend to run the show .

rozumiemnicThreads: 4 Posts: 1,026 Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀	Apr 3, 11, 15:49 #6
Torq: Generally, I think that women in Poland enjoy all the rights and freedoms that women in other European countries do. I don't think so..http://www.feministki.org.pl/pl/raport.html

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Apr 3, 11, 15:50 #7
rozumiemnic: http://www.feministki.org.pl/pl/raport.html That's 12 years old, but maybe some of the points in the raport are still valid. What do you think?

rozumiemnicThreads: 4 Posts: 1,026 Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀	Edited by: rozumiemnic Apr 3, 11, 15:57 #8
Torq: . What do you think? I don't really see that much would have changed in the last 12 years...to be honest. Also your point about women retiring earlier and living longer might seem to favour women, but in fact being forced out of employment at a younger age, thereby being pushed onto a pension which is smaller anyway having made fewer tax contrubutions, simply impoverishes women further.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Apr 3, 11, 16:02 #9
One of the things that I find disgraceful, is the attitude of some employers towards women who have babies and go on maternity leave. They are very often fired under some lame excuse. However, I don't know what could be done to change that. If we impose stricter laws, the private sector employers will just stop employing women altogether.

rozumiemnicThreads: 4 Posts: 1,026 Joined: Nov 16, 09 ♀	Apr 3, 11, 16:06 #10
Yes I think that is a problem all over. Counrties can legislate as much as they like, but eventually if it too expensive for small companies to hire women of child bearing age, they just won't.

♂

Apr 3, 11, 16:07 #11

mephias:

Do you think feminine attributes (beauty ) creates unfair assessment ( for example in a job application) or it is overly put forward when it comes to women ?

Polish women in the great nation of Poland tend to present themselves as sex toys. This is manifested in the way they dress as well as in their countenance and body language. Sadly, their behavior corresponds with this.

So does it create an "unfair assessment"? Perhaps Polki understand the nuances of power more than one may think.

MaaarysiaThreads: 3 Posts: 541 Joined: Feb 27, 10 ♀	Apr 3, 11, 20:40 #12
I'm a woman and I don't feel discriminated.

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Edited by: SeanBM Apr 3, 11, 20:44 #13

Chivalry died when equality was born ;)

I find Polish women maintain their femininity without being some kind of subservient sex.

One of the main differences was Poland's communist era, when women were valued members of the workforce. Not like in other "Western" countries where women were repressed and hence a sexual revelation came about in many countries.

I think there has been a "return to family values" here in Poland after communism and while other "western" countries have gone through the sexual revolution, they now look at Poland and mistakingly judge it based on their own history and perhaps see women as they were once in discriminated against in the "west".

Poland had a female Taoiseach Hanna Suchocka, I don't know many countries who have a female for the most powerful member of state (but maybe that is my fault?).

I find that women in other countries like Ireland and Norway dress and act like men but are offended when they are treated like men. I guess they have yet to find themselves.

Torq:

attitude of some employers towards women
who have babies and go on maternity leave.

In Lithuania, I have met women who want to secure full time contracts before they get pregnant, for the benefits, which didn't seem very fair either.

PolishNutjob:

Polish women in the great nation of Poland tend to present themselves as sex toys.

A minority maybe but certainly not the majority.
Where have you been hanging around? ;)

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 20:44 #14
Torq: I think that women in Poland enjoy all the rights and freedoms that women in other European countries do. Yes more or less, emphacize is on less in regard to men. Usual stuff. :)

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 812 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Apr 3, 11, 20:50 #15
Torq: is the attitude of some employers towards women What about salaries ? Do men and women earn same salary for same/similar positions ?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 20:51 #16
mephias: What about salaries ? Do men and women earn same salary for same/similar positions ? I doubt it, I doubt that that actually happens anywhere in the world. As James Brown sings "It's a Man's Man's Man's World".

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Apr 3, 11, 20:56 #17

mephias:

What about salaries ? Do men and women earn same salary for same/similar positions ?

I really couldn't say - I was never really interested in the subject. In the state sector, the salaries
are probably the same; in private sector it's possible that women's wages are lower, because private
sector employers generally prefer employing men - no maternity leaves for them and usually they
have more time available, as women still do most of the housework in Poland.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Apr 3, 11, 20:58 #18
Torq: men - no maternity leaves for them My mate is taking paternity leave now as it happens but it is unpaid. Torq: women still do most of the housework in Poland. Yes and child rearing.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 21:05 #19
SeanBM: My mate is taking paternity leave now as it happens but it is unpaid. Probably why the the classis role for that belongs to women. We still live in a very unflexible world regarding the job/work and of course the turnaround regarding the roles in that field what does not mean the classic gender positions are still valid. Society has to get more flexible on that topic, too I guess.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Apr 3, 11, 21:10 #20

sascha:

gender positions

''Gender roles'' is an interesting idea.

These days both parents work to pay the mortgage, their kids are brought up by T.V. and nonrelatives in school.

I am not saying that women should stay at home and rear the children, that is for couples to decide but I think it is better if one of the parents doesn't work, at least full time, during their children's childhood.

Childhoods are just too precious.

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Edited by: Torq Apr 3, 11, 21:23 #21

SeanBM:

I am not saying that women should stay at home and rear the children

I am not saying that either, but it would certainly be beneficial for the entire family if they could
afford it financially, and if mothers could concentrate on keeping the house and rearing children.

It is also, contrary to feminist propaganda, something that most women would be happy to do,
if only they could afford it. Unfortunately, the current economic system forces the women to
leave their children and go to work in mostly low-paid jobs. For example, the upkeep cost of a single
crèche or playschool place, that a local gmina is paying, is 1500PLN/month; at that time the mother
of that baby goes to work in which she earns 1200PLN/month (as a cashier in a supermarket for example).
Why don't we just give the 1200PLN to her, so she can stay at home with her kid, and we'll still have
300PLN left in the gmina's treasury?

If we had a system like that in place, it would be beneficial for the entire economy. Men would earn
much more (employers, deprived of the slave-like cheap labor of women, would be forced to pay more
to their male workers) so they would be able to support their families, there would be no unemployment
as women staying at home would create a huge shortage of labor power so every employee would
be very valuable and would have to be respected by the employer, and the most important thing,
the benefits for young generations, being raised by their mothers, would be immense.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Edited by: PennBoy Apr 3, 11, 21:30 #22
mephias: As a foreigner living in Poland, I had the impression there is a slight imbalance how women are assessed in Poland Wrong. Because you're making your assumptions based on your country's women. Many Polish women to this day are old fashioned and like the man to be a man and be in charge. It's not about her being controlled it's about her being a woman.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Apr 3, 11, 21:38 #23

Torq:

mothers could concentrate on keeping the house and rearing children...something that most women would be happy to do,

I am not certain about that, I really don't know.

Torq:

so she can stay at home with her kid, and we'll still have
300PLN left in the gmina's treasury?

I found this about Poland:

Paid maternity leave-16–18 weeks 100%

Paid maternity (% of annual) - 35%

Paid paternity leave - 7 days 100% (14 days since 2011)

Unpaid maternity leave - up to 3 years, may be splitted

Parental leave Wiki

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Apr 3, 11, 21:45 #24

SeanBM:

I am not certain about that, I really don't know.

Out of my personal experience - 8 out of 10 married women I know, would happily stay at home
and rear their children, if they could only afford it financially. Of course, those who want to work
should, by all means, be allowed to do so.

It's all about giving women a free choice: you want to go to work, fine; you want to stay at home
and rear your children, fine (but, seeing as it is immensely beneficial to the state, if you do so,
we will pay you for it). Simple as that.

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 812 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Apr 3, 11, 21:50 #25
PennBoy: Wrong I said impression, the reason I start this thread to learn how it is really. And so far it seems people do not have big problems about it which is good. PennBoy: Because you're making your assumptions based on your country's women It would be true if I was a tourist in Poland, I am here almost for two years.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Apr 3, 11, 21:50 #26

Torq:

Out of my personal experience - 8 out of 10 married women I know, would happily stay at home
and rear their children, if they could only afford it financially. Of course, those who want to work
should, by all means, be allowed to do so.

It would appear the difference between the legal status of maternity and paternity leave in countries backs your opinion.

Torq:

immensely beneficial to the state

Are you talking about?:

Torq:

the upkeep cost of a single
crèche or playschool place, that a local gmina is paying, is 1500PLN/month; at that time the mother
of that baby goes to work in which she earns 1200PLN/month (as a cashier in a supermarket for example).
Why don't we just give the 1200PLN to her, so she can stay at home with her kid, and we'll still have
300PLN left in the gmina's treasury?

Or the benefit to society?

Probably both...

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Apr 3, 11, 21:53 #27
SeanBM: Probably both... Both, with slightly stronger emphasis on the benefit to society.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 3, 11, 21:57 #28
Torq: It's all about giving women a free choice There's already the problem. The formulation you/we use. It's their RIGHT to do so, just that society is not offering much alternatives, by all means, if it is respected to stay at home or not etc.

♀

Apr 3, 11, 23:51 #29

SeanBM:

I think there has been a "return to family values" here in Poland after communism and while other "western" countries have gone through the sexual revolution, they now look at Poland and mistakingly judge it based on their own history and perhaps see women as they were once in discriminated against in the "west".

spot on.
Historically, the situation of women has been different in Poland than in the West since as early as the 19th c. With the numerous wars and uprisings, a lot of men were killed or jailed or sent to Siberia or whatever, women remained at home and ran businesses, managed estates, raised children single-handedly etc. Then after the WWII everybody had to work in order to survive. In the 50s, when women in the West started toying with the idea of leaving home, women in Poland had already been long past the phase.

Still, it's not so rosy now, the pregnancy/maternity issue is a big obstacle at the job market. Also, on average women earn less, mostly because they have lower expectations when it comes to negotiating the salary. They are ready to work for less therefore they get less and mostly it's a self-esteem problem.

♂ [Suspended]

Apr 4, 11, 00:38 #30

Torq:

It's all about giving women a free choice: you want to go to work, fine; you want to stay at home
and rear your children, fine (but, seeing as it is immensely beneficial to the state, if you do so,
we will pay you for it). Simple as that.

But how many of those places actually exist?

I can only speak for Poznan - and public creche places are incredibly limited here. It would be far more expensive to pay all the mothers to stay at home rather than work.

Don't forget that the benefit to the woman's career - if she stays at home, she's going to be attempting to re-enter the workplace and having to compete against younger, hungier people. We saw recently in the UK the problems with middle aged women who have never worked - they tried to get jobs due to the financial crisis, only to find that many of them simply couldn't cope.

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