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Why are some Polish people dark complected,and others very light


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Varsovian
  Mar 20, 07, 09:02  #91

Far too many to list

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mrhappy [Guest]
Edited by: mrhappy  Mar 20, 07, 09:13  #92

Quoting: Varsovian
My Polish wife is pretty, and pretty dark too.
Jet black hair, dark skin, suffers in the Polish winter from a lack of sunshine (a vitamin D thing).
Based on mtDNA testing of the EU 18 haplotype, Poles are generally fairly similar gentically to Albanians, Croatians, Georgians, Syrians and Udmurts (whoever they are - sorry any Udmurts who might be reading!)
I thought I'd blind you with a smidgin of science


WTF??? LOL

Here's some better info than what you gave...

Recent years have seen the publication of a plethora of genetic reports dealing with the Polish population. As a result we now have a fair idea about the Poles' genetic structure and position in Europe. In many ways these studies have challenged traditional anthropological and historical research on Poland, which often claimed the Poles to be strongly mixed with a variety of ethnic groups that have migrated to the region over the centuries.

In a nutshell, the Poles appear to be typical northern Europeans genetically. They generally cluster with the other Indo-European speakers of the region, and show differenecs from Finno-Ugrian and southern European populations. Foreign influences on the Polish genetic pool, both from different parts of Europe, as well as from outside of Europe, appear to have been minor.

Let's first take a look at the sex biased genetic data...

In terms of Y-chromosome haplogroups the Poles are quite "Slavic". In other words, they are similar in this respect to the their ethnic kin in the east, the Russians and Ukranians. The most common haplogroup in all three nations is R1a - the dominant haplorgoup in eastern Europe. However, the Russians and Ukranians generally carry more of haplogroup N, which is seen most often in Finnic and Altaic populations. This suggests that the eastern Slavs absorbed Finno-Ugrian elements as they expanded east from their region of ethnogenesis.

Western European influence on the Poles via Y-chromosome haplogroups has not been great. Haplogroup R1b, most often seen in Celtic and Germanic populations, is found at levels of 7-17% in Poland. The typically Germanic I1a is even rarer, occuring at less than 6% in Poland as a whole.

In appears that the German, Dutch, Scottish, French and Italian migrants of the middle ages left a much lesser mark on Poland's population than previously thought. Invasions of Poland by Germans and Swedes also appear to have been rather minor influences on the present Poles' paternal makeup.

And it seems that migrants and invasions from the east have been even less successful in this respect. Typically East Asian and Siberian haplogroups, such as C and Q respectively, are extremely rare in Poland. The Finno-Ugric N, which is thought to have an East Asian origin, and was probably also carried by invading Asian nomads, is commonly found at 3-4% in Poland. However, most of this haplorgoup in Poland is probably due to Lithuanian admixture, and not direct Asian influence. N is found in about 40% of the population in Lithuania, which was joined with Poland for centuries as part of the Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.

Typically Near Eastern haplogroups such as J and G are also uncommon in Poland. Western and southern European populations, as well as the Ukranians and southwest Russians, carry more of these Middle Eastern markers than Poles. This argues against any significant Jewish, Armenian and Turkish influence on the present Polish population, despite these groups' well documented presence in Polish history.

[imgs=img145.imageshack.us/img145/8114/mapbp0.jpg][/imgs]

More detailed haplotype Y-chromosome data support the findings of the broader haplogroup surveys, but also throw up a couple of surprises. Poles show some similarities to Germans, but more so to Russians. They also tend to share haplotypes with Lithuanians and Latvians, which might be a sign of the common Balto-Slavic origin of these groups. Yet in the end, the Poles also show a remarkable homogenity and distinctiveness.

Population samples from Germany and Russia also showed similarities to Polish populations, with relatively small RST-values on pairwise comparisons (0.0176-0.097). It is noteworthy that all but one of the comparisons between the six Polish populations and the Russians revealed statistically non-significant differences (0.05 0.001). These genetic similarities are most probably a result of the common Slavic origin. On the other hand, small genetic distances between all of the Polish-German population pairs were statistically significant (P<0.0001), which might reflect the different background of Slavic-speaking and German-speaking populations.


From "Homogeneity and distinctiveness of Polish paternal lineages revealed by Y chromosome microsatellite haplotype analysis".

Haplotype data is also more useful than haplogroups when focusing more closely on the paternal admixture from Asia. For example, although R1a is common in Poland, it's also common among Tatars. So in this instance it would be difficult to tell whether or not the Tatars contributed to the Polish gene pool. However, according to the YHRD database, haplotypes typically seen in Turko-Mongol groups of Central Asia are rare in Poland, even if they represent typically European haplogroups such as R1a and R1b. They make up less than 1% of the combined Polish sample.

Moving onto the other 50% of sex biased DNA, the maternal mtDNA...

Differences in mtDNA within Europe are not major. In northern Europe populations speaking Slavic, Germanic and Baltic carry the same basic haplogroups in very similar frequencies. Poles do show some similarities to Russians in this respect that would suggest a common Slavic origin. However, they also share rare mtDNA markers with Germanic speakers.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region sequences were determined in Poles (n = 436) and Russians (n = 201). Despite the high mtDNA diversity, both populations are characterized by similar pattern of mtDNA haplogroup distribution, which is also typical for many European populations studied. The analysis of mtDNA haplotype distribution has shown that both Slavonic populations share them mainly with Germans and Finns. The following numbers of the rare shared haplotypes and subclusters were found between populations analyzed: 10% between Poles and Germans, 7.4% between Poles and Russians, and 4.5% between Russians and Germans. A novel subcluster U4-310, defined by mutation at nucleotide position 310 in HVS II, was found predominantly in common between Poles and Russians (at frequency of 2%). Given the relatively high frequency and diversity of this marker among Poles and its low frequency in the neighbouring German and Finnish populations, we suggest a central European origin of U4-310, following by subsequent dispersal of this mtDNA subgroup in eastern European populations during the Slavonic migrations in early Middle Ages.


From "Mitochondrial DNA analysis in Poles and Russians"

Our results indicate that AvaII morph and haplogorup composition of the Polish population is similar to oher European populations and has a distribution typical for this part of the world. However, statistically significant differenes in haplogroup composition were found between the Polish population and Italian and Finnish populations.


From "Comparison between the Polish population and European populations on the basis of mitochondrial morphs and haplogroups".



At the same time, Poles carry about 1.8% of the East Asian haplogroup M. It's somewhat of a mystery how this foreign maternal admixture found its way into the Polish gene pool, considering that the Turko-Mongol invaders of the middle ages were largely male.

Since the Baltic populations to the north carry less than 1% of these Asian haplogroups, and European Russians about 1.5%, it is more likely that they found their way to Poland from the south. Czechs are known to carry 3% of East Asian mtDNA, probably as a result of admixture from the Huns, Avars and Magyars. Therefore, the most likely scenario is that women with Turko-Mongol admixture moved to Poland from such regions as Moravia, Slovakia and Hungary, rather than directly from Asia.

Sub-Saharan African specififc mtDNA haplogroups are much more unusual in Poland, and appear more commonly in such western European countries as Germany and France.

And now onto Autosomal (non-sex biased) tests...recognised as the best way to test population structure.

More recent studies looking at thousands of genome wide Autosomal markers have firmly put the Poles in the same cluster with northern Europan populations such as the Irish, English, Germans and Swedes. This perhaps suggests that these populations share ancient links which are not apparent when comparing the fast mutating Y-chromosome markers discussed above.

Please note that in the first digram Poles are shown along with other Eastern Europeans in pink (EEURA). In the second. they are shown seperately in green. In both diagrams they cluster strongly with the "Northern" samples.



From "European Population Substructure: Clustering of Northern and Southern Populations"

Interesting to note...

Regardless of the European country of origin, each of those participants with four grandparents of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage showed this predominant “southern” cluster membership.


This could be more proof that Poles and Jews rarely mixed during their many years of co-existance.

Another Autosomal study came up with similar conclusions...

Within the two broad Northern (Polish, Irish,

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Varsovian
  Mar 20, 07, 09:18  #93

But don't forget that Y chromosome reflects historical times, whereas I referred to rather deeper things. /sigh/
I thought better of you than to merely cut and paste from the internet without showing too much understanding.
Mind you, Y chromosome studies do at least show that Poles have scarcely found a single German sexually attractive over the last 1500 years.
Which isn't surprising, really!

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mrhappy [Guest]
Edited by: mrhappy  Mar 20, 07, 09:30  #94

Quoting: Varsovian
But don't forget that Y chromosome reflects historical times, whereas I referred to rather deeper things. /sigh/
I thought better of you than to merely cut and paste from the internet without showing too much understanding.
Mind you, Y chromosome studies do at least show that Poles have scarcely found a single German sexually attractive over the last 1500 years.
Which isn't surprising, really!


Pfff...I've just shown mtDNA, Y-chromosome as well as genome wide SNP data.

My understanding of these issues is pretty damn good.

Btw hot shot, EU18 is not an mtDNA marker. It's a Y-chromosome marker which is these days better known as R1b. And it's not common in Poland.

EU19, or R1a is much more common.

So, not only did you mix up Y-chromosome data for mtDNA, but also gave the wrong haplogroup.

You're out of your depth.

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Grzegorz_
  Mar 20, 07, 11:16  #95

Quoting: Varsovian
Mind you, Y chromosome studies do at least show that Poles have scarcely found a single German sexually attractive over the last 1500 years.
Which isn't surprising, really!


What ?

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shewolf
Edited by: shewolf  Mar 20, 07, 13:28  #96

Quoting: mrhappy
Recent years have seen the publication of a plethora of genetic reports dealing with the Polish population. As a result we now have a fair idea about the Poles' genetic structure and position in Europe. In many ways these studies have challenged traditional anthropological and historical research on Poland, which often claimed the Poles to be strongly mixed with a variety of ethnic groups that have migrated to the region over the centuries.


Hi mrhappy. I've seen you on a different forum. I find this information very interesting. What are your thoughts on autosomal DNA? Some say it's flawed. Others find it reliable. Do you know anything about the autosomal DNA in Poland? I should start a different thread on this topic.

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Varsovian
  Mar 21, 07, 04:01  #97

R1b is rare, which is what makes it so interesting

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Giles [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 13:53  #98

Well I for one haven't got a clue what anyone is talking about, where Huegal or Bubba

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josecitomadera [Guest]
Edited by: josecitomadera  Mar 21, 07, 17:39  #99

Quoting: mrhappy
Sub-Saharan African specififc mtDNA haplogroups are much more unusual in Poland, and appear more commonly in such western European countries as Germany and France.

Hahaha, I wonder how the "Master Race" feels now, ahahaha

From all of this MtDna testing going on, science is showing that the order of the day is variation and not essence. Human life began in Africa and as such we are all one much to the chagrin of the ridiculous and cartoonish white supremacists.

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josecitomadera [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 17:48  #100

Quoting: larry casula
Janusz Liberkowski

That's an old man. He looks Mexican.

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josecitomadera [Guest]
Edited by: josecitomadera  Mar 21, 07, 17:53  #101

Quoting: miranda
I don't understand you motives. I am a person who is interested in motives and makes moral judgements, so after receiving your answer to my question, I am not any clearer on the purpose of you "skin colour" investigation.


The purpose is a nefarious one. I am plotting to take over the world. Armed with that information I shall be one step closer to world domination, LOL.

A haplogroup is a genetic marker. A cellular imprint denoting membership to a certain grouping of humans who are also sharing that imprint. It specifically deals with the phenotype of the individual. Just off the top of my head.

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ArturSzastak
Edited by: ArturSzastak  Mar 21, 07, 18:07  #102

Quoting: josecitomadera
A cellular imprint denoting membership to a certain grouping of humans who are also sharing that imprint. It specifically deals with the phenotype of the individual.



Well he should have just said that.............f^ckin scientist



Alright I gotcha now. Thanks Jose

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shewolf
  Mar 21, 07, 18:18  #103

Quoting: josecitomadera
That's an old man. He looks Mexican.


Poor Janusz. What if he's reading this right now? He'll be hurt.

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shewolf
  Mar 21, 07, 18:20  #104

Quoting: josecitomadera
A haplogroup is a genetic marker. A cellular imprint denoting membership to a certain grouping of humans who are also sharing that imprint. It specifically deals with the phenotype of the individual. Just off the top of my head.


Have you had your haplogroup checked? I'll tell you mine if you'll tell me yours.

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Sedzia [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 18:58  #105

"Hahaha, I wonder how the "Master Race" feels now, ahahaha

From all of this MtDna testing going on, science is showing that the order of the day is variation and not essence. Human life began in Africa and as such we are all one much to the chagrin of the ridiculous and cartoonish white supremacists."


Do you really think people buy into all that? You seem to fear these evil white's because you deleted your myspace profile pretty fast . However one thing is for sure you definatley have african negro in your blood you have many facial features of a black. As for master race yes you got it

.polishforums.com/user_files/uploaded/4553/57250_1.jpg

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josecitomadera [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:17  #106

Quoting: Sedzia
myspace profile pretty fast . However one thing is for sure you definatley have african negro in your blood you have many facial features of a black.

If it came from the non-racist Polish posters on board I'd accept it. Your comments are imbued with hate because of my tireless defense of the negroid race who suffered for centuries. Their suffering is equivalent to The Holocaust. They have suffered under the most oppressive, degrading and sub-human measures known to mankind. And you are proud of this. You believe to make me feel bad because of this. I could only hope to be counted worthy amongst the negroid race for their example as an ethnic group who despite their tragedy contributed greatly to the American landscape.

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larry casula
  Mar 21, 07, 19:20  #107

Actually Jose,
Only 5% of all the slaves came to America, the Spainards brought them and had over 95% of them, so it is a misnomer that America had all of them, we only had a small percentage.

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Sedzia [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:20  #108

"Your comments are imbued with hate because of my tireless defense of the negroid race who suffered for centuries. Their suffering is equivalent to The Holocaust. They have suffered under the most oppressive, degrading and sub-human measures known to mankind. And you are proud of this. You believe to make me feel bad because of this. I could only hope to be counted worthy amongst the negroid race for their example as an ethnic group who despite their tragedy contributed greatly to the American landscape."

JOKE OF THE YEAR. I had no idea you were a comedian

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Puzzler
  Mar 21, 07, 19:21  #109

Josecipomadupera, have you had an incestuous relationship with your mother or father? If so, how did it feel? How does it feel to be a vicious psychopath and racist?

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ArturSzastak
  Mar 21, 07, 19:22  #110

Quoting: Puzzler
Josecipomadupera, have you had an incestuous relationship with your mother or father?



Why? You into that kid of stuff? Gotta find your own kind? There's probably a nice "White Pwoer" website out there for you

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josecitomadera [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:26  #111

Quoting: larry casula
Actually Jose,
Only 5% of all the slaves came to America,

OK, but it was a tragedy of epic proportions. Families ripped apart. Children stripped of their mothers.

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Sedzia [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:27  #112

Those poor porr negros who suffered so so much because of the evil white man. That's a real hoot! Go dive yourself into some real books.

[quotePosted by josecitomadera]

Blacks have suffered so much this is why prisons in america are full of them. This is white they rape and steal. Sell crack and place outrageous demands on others. This is why they are over represented in crime figures all over the world. They are not stupid because they have low brain activity, it backs the white man put a majoic spell on them years ago. Evil white! must be interracially bred out through means of black/white intercourse so we can all be like me, the low self esteemed single unattractive puerto riccan I am. It's all the white mans fault!!.[/quote]

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Sedzia [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:29  #113

Oh here comes ArturSzastak the champion of tolerance but only for mr josecitomadera. "You bumb as beans white american!" or so your little friend calls you

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josecitomadera [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:29  #114

ADMIN SHOULD NOT ALLOW THIS RAMPANT RACISM. THOSE WHO DON"T POST ARE MORE THAN THOSE WHO DO AND THEY CAN ONLY BE APPALLED BY THESE PEOPLE.

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Puzzler
  Mar 21, 07, 19:29  #115

Hey, Artur. Why do you suggest that there's a 'nice white Pwoer' (sic) website there for me? Please explain what do you mean. By the way, are you happy with Joseducipo and other racist psychos insulting Polish people on this website? Are you at all Polish, ArturSzastak?

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ArturSzastak
  Mar 21, 07, 19:31  #116

Quoting: Sedzia
Those poor porr negros who suffered so so much because of the evil white man. That's a real hoot! Go dive yourself into some real books.

[quotePosted by josecitomadera]

Blacks have suffered so much this is why prisons in america are full of them. This is white they rape and steal. Sell crack and place outrageous demands on others. This is why they are over represented in crime figures all over the world. They are not stupid because they have low brain activity, it backs the white man put a majoic spell on them years ago. Evil white! must be interracially bred out through means of black/white intercourse so we can all be like me, the low self esteemed single unattractive puerto riccan I am. It's all the white mans fault!!.
[/quote]



You have a valid point for once. YES, TODAY's blacks are using slavery as an excuse (not all of them) but they weren't even alive to see the days of slavery. Many of them are just not trying hard enough to make themselves into something that can make their childeren's future brighter. But my hat's off to the many that try their hardest.

It's a sad truth, many blacks still use this as an excuse for the things they do. I love black people and all, but some of them need to get life figured out. They are giving the whole race a bad name.

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josecitomadera [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:32  #117

Quoting: Sedzia
"You bumb as beans white american!"

If I said something to this effect, it was misconstrued and for that I ask forgiveness of the nice kind Polish folk on this board. When I posted that I intended to say that all races are equally doing poorly in all subject areas in the USA. Anyway I'm not trying to white wash my errors. I'm only human, prone to mistakes. I'm sorry for this. I equally love the good in all races and despise the evil in all races.

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josecitomadera [Guest]
Edited by: josecitomadera  Mar 21, 07, 19:34  #118

I have never insulted any Polish people. I can only feel solidarity for a group of people who have also suffered atrocities at the hands of the nazis. Artur, I consider a friend. If something comes from him I will accept it with minimal questioning for clarification purposes.

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Sedzia [Guest]
  Mar 21, 07, 19:34  #119

"If I said something to this effect, it was misconstrued and for that I ask forgiveness of the nice kind Polish folk on this board. When I posted that I intended to say that all races are equally doing poorly in all subject areas in the USA. Anyway I'm not trying to white wash my errors. I'm only human, prone to mistakes. I'm sorry for this. I equally love the good in all races and despise the evil in all races."

Don't twist it around now you know what you said. A few looks at your posts over time and the admins will find you are very much anti-white. But nobody is begging you to stay

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ArturSzastak
  Mar 21, 07, 19:35  #120

Quoting: Puzzler
Hey, Artur. Why do you suggest that there's a 'nice white Pwoer' (sic) website there for me? Please explain what do you mean. By the way, are you happy with Joseducipo and other racist psychos insulting Polish people on this website? Are you at all Polish?



From what I can gather from your posts, you think whites are better than everyone. Take your feelings to someone who'll listen, not those who'll get annoyed (nobody wants to hear racism)

Jose's a good guy. I never saw him post anything racist against Poles. The "Dumb as Beans" thing you are probably reffering to was just an honest observation he made about what Peurto Ricans thought about whites.

And yes, I am 100% Polish. Why?

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