Hooligans and their history in Poland?

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Mar 7, 11, 13:16 #1

I have yet to come by a person which knows WHY Hooligans came to life in Poland. Or all of the Warsaw pact countries! Who was the driving force for the Hooligans? I also wish that some people draw conslusions or some with examples of how Hooligans grew up in "Western" Europe in comparison to "Eastern" Europe.

(The reason I came up with this thread is becaouse I had a dream last night! I was taking a train from a dump somewhere in Poland and pretended first that I was a Norwegian who baraly could speak any English, but then when I stepped into the train I felt like speaking Polish! Then the conversation began about football clubs, and one guy grabbed my shirt for saying some stuff and then I started to explain my theory about the rivalry between the clubs and where it derives from! But before I go into THAT I want to hear other's opinion first)

DaisyThreads: 16 Posts: 2,172 Joined: Apr 28, 07 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 13:27 #2
it's a substitute for tribal war

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 13:29 #3
Daisy: it's a substitute for tribal war That explains what it is... But why? Who started it? Before in the times there were duels... drinking party's which went the wrong way... This didn't even happen on such a large scale during the 1920's or 1930's?

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,389 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 13:35 #4
Mr Grunwald: Who started it? About Hooligans: I have heard two origins, one was that they originated in Ireland and it was all about playing local football. The other was the story of Hooleys gang in London in the 19th century, the newspaper started to call them the " Hooligans"

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 13:37 #5
warszawski: About Hooligans: I have heard two origins, one was that they originated in Ireland and it was all about playing local football. The other was the story of Hooleys gang in London in the 19th century, the newspaper started to call them the " Hooligans" So in Britain in may have originated from Ireland?

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,389 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Edited by: warszawski Mar 7, 11, 13:43 #6
Mr Grunwald: So in Britain in may have originated from Ireland? The term " hooligan" is after an Irish family name, it evolved into a word used for rowdy behavior/drunken revelry. Regarding Polish football hooliganism, watch Ross Kemps Gangs- Poland http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddc_1192771111

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 13:55 #7
Ironically, very little sports related "hooliganism" in Ireland at all as it happens. In soccer, a bit of fan trouble between true arch rivals sometimes but nothing much.

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 7, 11, 13:56 #8

warszawski:

Regarding Polish football hooliganism, watch Ross Kemps Gangs- Poland

Seen it, at start you get the impression that most hooligans are "Nazi's" but later on it shows out of itself that it isn't so it's 50/50 about being good. But it failed to show the ORIGINS of the fights! It was told that they had it from father to son BUT the main thing that started it? It gotta start from somewhere... It can't be "It's just what happands in football" come on I won't belive it! Somebody gotta know

Teffle:

In soccer, a bit of fan trouble between true arch rivals sometimes but nothing much.

Well that's what Hooligans are, extreme fans!

puella:

The Brits ;)

Hehe :)
But in the general picture Brits weren't the drive force for the Polish hooligans?

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 13:56 #9
Mr Grunwald: Who started it? The Brits ;)

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,228 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 14:00 #10
puella: The Brits ;) Probably. Hooliganism around football seemed to arise with the far right groups in the late 70s and then continued during the tory "sociaty is dead" era.....

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 14:02 #11
Mr Grunwald: But in the general picture Brits weren't the drive force for the Polish hooligans? I think they might be. Poland wasn't so insolated as you may think... that is I think it wasn't insolated. Maybe ask some elders. Jonny may know that.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 14:09 #12
puella: Poland wasn't so insolated as you may think... that is I think it wasn't insolated. Maybe ask some elders. Ey ey ey I am a patriot but Im not a farmer I can bare many things, this is... Like SNOW! It's anouying wet but no matter what it will still be there... puella: Jonny may know that. Ill ask him more then

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,228 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 14:09 #13
nah,you lot got into hooliganism just as our lot grew up....cant blame britain for your neo nazi muppets and skinheads....

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Mar 7, 11, 14:12 #14

isthatu2:

nah,you lot got into hooliganism just as our lot grew up....cant blame britain for your neo nazi muppets and skinheads....

You yourself said that... the..

isthatu2:

Probably. Hooliganism around football seemed to arise with the far right groups in the late 70s and then continued during the tory "sociaty is dead" era.....

But im not talking about hooligans hair styles or their political embryo I am talking about their beginning! and descide yourself NO or YES about Britain being the criminal in this matter?

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Mar 7, 11, 14:17 #15

Mr Grunwald:

descide yourself NO or YES about Britain being the criminal in this matter?

I am on the NO side.

You may want to read this-

http://www.krakowpost.com/article/2316

The firms are entrenched social institutions, and their relationships with one another and with their clubs are almost Byzantine in their complexity. Most of the clubs’ firms have networks of allegiances with one another, resulting in the bizarre phenomenon of matches during which supporters, rather than singing insults and threats at the visiting fans, exchange praise and pledges of eternal loyalty with them. Nevertheless, the pervasive aggressive atmosphere at some stadiums is so toxic that Krakow’s Cracovia, for example, has struggled to remain in the top league over the past few years as its powerful gang of hooligan “supporters” has created a powerfully negative atmosphere at its stadium, driving away potential families as it rallies its hooligan base.  They can also function as fairly sophisticated criminal organisations, demanding protection money from the clubs and using the stadiums as gang turf on which to conduct business such as trafficking drugs, as was reported at Lech Poznań in February, shortly before the club clinched the 2010 championship.

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Edited by: puella Mar 7, 11, 14:21 #16
warszawski: I am on the NO side. Wasn't that they heard about such structures bad boys in England of the 80s and were inspired? I think that Grunwald may ask as well how did it happened that punk subculture existed in Poland. It just was.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 7, 11, 14:23 #17
puella: I think that Grunwald may ask as well how did it happened that punk subculture existed in Poland. It just was. So that the communist authorities promoted "certain" clubs more then aothers didn't have ANY influence on the clubs and their "hatred" or "extreme rivarly" with one another? punk subculture? Don't make me laugh haah There is NO smoke without FIRE!

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Edited by: isthatu2 Mar 7, 11, 14:30 #18

What Im saying Mr Grunwald,as you jolly well know, is that England may have had early hooligans in the late 70s but it certainly wasnt english people coming to Poland and twisting poor innocent Polish boys arms untill they decided to spray swastikas all over Poland.......Your thugs rose as our own thugs disapeared,certainly in an "organised" capacity. **** heads in town squares during european away games do not = firms but just drunk fools.

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 14:32 #19
Mr Grunwald: punk subculture? Don't make me laugh haah what do you mean? In Poland punk subculture was very popular. I was just trying to say that hools are another subculture imported from Great Britain. But Ross Kemp doesn't agree. Here you have an answer for your question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHKLUls0gM

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Mar 7, 11, 14:36 #20

Mr Grunwald:

So that the communist authorities promoted "certain" clubs more then aothers didn't have ANY influence on the clubs and their "hatred" or "extreme rivarly" with one another?

I was of the opinion that most football clubs in Poland started out as Sports clubs { football, boxing, running ) then evolved into real football clubs after the fall of communism. The teams in each club, lets say Polonia or Legia were made up of sportsmen from certain districts, so there was always the rivalry. Regarding inter-city, I have not heard of any reports of real sports hooliganism to the levels of today ( pre 1989)

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 14:38 #21
Mr Grunwald: So that the communist authorities promoted "certain" clubs more then aothers What do you mean? I've never heard about it.

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,228 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Mar 7, 11, 14:39 #22
Ross kemp is not always the best source of info.... Dangerous middle class mixed gender gangs... Dangerous homosexual terror group...

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Mar 7, 11, 14:45 #23

I don't think football hooligans were imported to Poland from Britain - it just developed here independently - when I was in my high school in the late 80's and early 90's it was already live and well in some cities - we after all had very little contact with the British culture except for music and film which couldn't have given rise hooliganism

and yes punk subculture was a completely different story to football hooliganism - I guess it was pretty much the same in Britain

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Edited by: puella Mar 7, 11, 14:49 #24
gumishu: and yes punk subculture was a completely different story to football hooliganism co ty nie powiesz... I could say goths instead of punks as well... Most subculture were "invented" in GB. That also includes hooligans.

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Mar 7, 11, 14:51 #25

warszawski:

Regarding inter-city, I have not heard of any reports of real sports hooliganism to the levels of today ( pre 1989)

A lot of it was apparently suppressed by the authorities (in terms of being mentioned in the media).

warszawski:

I was of the opinion that most football clubs in Poland started out as Sports clubs { football, boxing, running ) then evolved into real football clubs after the fall of communism.

As I recall, post-communism, the teams became associated with some sort of State enterprise - Lech Poznan were associated with PKP, Cracovia Krakow with the MPK there and Legia Warszawa with the military? Although Wikipedia seems to suggest that many clubs were associated with State enterprises even before WW2.

Many of the teams are still associated with sport clubs though - Warta Poznan definitely is, for instance.

puellaThreads: 9 Posts: 319 Joined: Jan 10, 11 ♀	Mar 7, 11, 14:52 #26
delphiandomine: As I recall, post-communism, the teams became associated with some sort of State enterprise - Lech Poznan were associated with PKP, Cracovia Krakow with the MPK there and Legia Warszawa with the military? Although Wikipedia seems to suggest that many clubs were associated with State enterprises even before WW2. They were sponsored by those.

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Mar 7, 11, 14:55 #27

puella:

Mr Grunwald:
So that the communist authorities promoted "certain" clubs more then aothers

What do you mean? I've never heard about it.

well but it was true - Legia was the most promoted football club - they even extracted better players from other clubs by making them serve in the army and instead of sitting in barracks or running about training grounds with AK's they played for Legia - Legia was called (and acted as) National Armed Forces Sport Club (Centralny Wojskowy Klub Sportowy - CWKS)

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 7, 11, 14:56 #28
warszawski: The teams in each club, lets say Polonia or Legia were made up of sportsmen from certain districts, so there was always the rivalry. Legia was originally an army club. I hear stories that during communism it sometimes used the army connection to get the best players (i.e. 'Join Legia or the army, your choice.')

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Edited by: warszawski Mar 7, 11, 15:56 #29

Harry:

Legia was originally an army club. I hear stories that during communism it sometimes used the army connection to get the best players (i.e. 'Join Legia or the army, your choice.')

Thats right, there is an army training camp close by Legia on ul Podchorazyc, that whole housing area of dolny Mokotow was given to the families of army personnel. The lower areas to lower ranking soldiers and the upper streets of Parkowa to the Generals.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 7, 11, 16:41 #30
The "original" Hooligans were a rowdy Irish family living in London whose antics made their name proverbial. Hooliganism originally had nothing to do with soccer.

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