Jihad Legia! - should the Polish team be punished?

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Edited by: JonnyM Dec 18, 11, 09:03 #181

Des Essientes:

Your tarring all the fans of this team as hooligans is asinine.

What makes you think I'm 'tarring' all the fans? If you knew the first thing about Poland you would know what a legia hool is. But you don't.

Des Essientes:

And they would all be wrong. The banner says "Jihad Legia" not "Jihad Palestinians"

Jihad is the operative word here. As I've said before, I'd be surprised if even 5% of hools know what the word means.

Des Essientes:

No one said the Legia fans were advocating BDS. Do you even know how to read and comprehend English text? Obviously the fans of Legia were not boycotting the Israeli team.

Once again you've completely missed the point. Which is that there are very strict rules in Europe governing international football.

Des Essientes:

This banner has been displayed at other matches and it wasn't deemed political

It has been deemed political and Legia have been fined. That is what this thread is about, in case you had, as ever, misunderstood.

Des Essientes:

you are a propagandist for the apartheid state of Israel

Really?

Des Essientes:

you have put forth a stupid alarmist slippery slope fallacy

Again you have misunderstood since you know nothing about either European football or the escalation of sectarianism that these rules are in place to prevent. As always.

Des Essientes:

"Oh the poor Israeli team its feelings may have been hurt" but what about the feelings of the fans that designed and payed for that banner so that they could display it at everyone of their team's games?

Yes, what about the poor hurt feelings of whatever group of people (delete as appropriate) who've paid for something which is clearly against the rules in the full knowledge that it was against the rules. To claim the hools are somehow victims because they can't display a banner written in mock Arabic script about Jihad in front of Israelis is hilarious. Now stop smoking whatever you're dulling your 'mind' with and actually experience something of Poland before trolling about Polish matters of which you have once again more than amply demonstrated that you know nothing.

In another thread there's a lady asking about Poland, about renting a home, about which town is better about this and that. Why not give her detailed advice. after all, you're used to giving strong opinions on places you've never been.

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Dec 18, 11, 09:27 #182

JonnyM:

It has been deemed political and Legia have been fined. That is what this thread is about, in case you had, as ever, misunderstood.

No it is you who has misunderstood what this thread is about. It is about whether or not Legia should be punished for this banner. Just becase the soccer league officials think otherwise does not make them right. As another poster commented above, in the sick twisted logic of this forum's expatriates the authorites, provided they are not Polish, are always right. I say it was a mistake to deem the banner political and it was a mistake to fine the team and many other people on this thread, that live in Poland, agree with me. Why don't you, and your cronies, drop this stupid argument that a person has to be in Poland to have the correct opinion regarding the topic of this thread. Judging by the rest of the posts on here it is you, and the Scots, that are out of touch with Polish opinion on this topic. Polish people appreciate this banner for what it truly is. You and your sad cadre from the islands do not.

JonnyM:

Now stop smoking whatever you're dulling your 'mind' with and actually experience something of Poland before trolling about Polish matters of which you have once again more than amply demonstrated that you know nothing.

I don't take orders from the likes of you, because it is you, not me, who is trolling about Polish matters. You should go to Trollhagenforums.com and be with your kind and leave this Polish discussion forum in peace.

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Dec 18, 11, 09:36 #183

Des Essientes:

It is about whether or not Legia should be punished for this banner.

And they have been.

Des Essientes:

Just becase the soccer league officials think otherwise does not make them right

If you knew even one thing about Poland you would know that it makes them very right.

Des Essientes:

the authorites, provided they are not Polish, are always right

In case you hadn't noticed, the rules are the same for every team playing in that league, Polish or not.

Des Essientes:

Polish people appreciate this banner for what it truly is

How would you know what people think in Poland?

Des Essientes:

leave this Polish discussion forum in peace.

Well, at least I have a connection with Poland. So stop trolling and stick to matters you know, eve a little, about.

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Dec 18, 11, 09:49 #184

JonnyM:

So stop trolling and stick to matters you know, eve a little, about.

I am not trolling you are.

JonnyM:

If you knew even one thing about Poland you would know that it makes them very right.

So you are saying that all the Poles that disagree with you on this thread know nothing about Poland? If so you are a stupid moron.

JonnyM:

How would you know what people think in Poland?

I have numerous ways of knowing not the least of which is by reading this forum's posts from people living in Poland and everyone on this thread, that lives in Poland, except for a few Scotsmen, agrees with me that the team shouldn't have been punished. So stop flaming about how I don't live in Poland. Flaming is trollish behavior.

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Edited by: JonnyM Dec 18, 11, 09:56 #185

Des Essientes:

So you are saying that all the Poles that disagree with you on this thread know nothing about Poland? If so you are a stupid moron.

Again you've misunderstood. This is a discussion forum and we are discussing a matter concerning Poland of which there are differences of opinion based on knowledge and experience. You, who are neither a Pole nor a Polish resident nor a football fan, and who has previously said that you care nothing for the mundane matters of modern Poland are trolling here. I wonder why.

Des Essientes:

I have numerous ways of knowing

All of which are second hand. Tell us about your experience of hools or perhaps of the long history of football that has led to such strict rules on sectarianism.

Des Essientes:

except for a few Scotsmen

I think only two have commented, both longstanding Polish residents.

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Dec 18, 11, 10:24 #186

Johnny said that with regard to the officials decision to fine the team that:

JonnyM:

If you knew even one thing about Poland you would know that it makes them very right.

This statement implies that anyone who knows anything about Poland would be on the side of the official decision in this matter. When I pointed this out to you you then claimed that:

JonnyM:

Again you've misunderstood. This is a discussion forum and we are discussing a matter concerning Poland of which there are differences of opinion.

I have misunderstood nothing. You foolishly claimed that people who know Poland have to be on the side of the officials. This is clearly not true. It seems that you are incapable of thinking logically. I am laughing at your frail attempt to justify your stupid statement and I suspect alot of other people reading this thread are too. Johnny you have made a fool of yourself and it is too late to edit out you foolishness. It is here for all the forum to see and laugh at. You have lost just like the Israeli team in the match against Legia.
I have already given my opinion on the topic of this thread and so I will leave it. I suspect that you will follow with some other bit of illogic or smarminess, but I want you to remember that I, and many other readers of this forum, will be laughing at you for your idiotic claim and your utter failure to justify it. Hahahahahahahahahaha.

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Dec 18, 11, 10:29 #187

Des Essientes:

This statement implies that anyone who knows anything about Poland would be on the side of the official decision in this matter

It implies that anyone who lives or has lived in Poland would know a little about how things work here. Especially the relationship between rules and regulations with society and the myriad issues surrounding behaviour of organised football fans of whom the legia hools are a particularly conspicuous example.

Des Essientes:

You foolishly claimed

Really?

Des Essientes:

You have lost just like the Israeli team in the match against Legia.
I have already given my opinion on the topic of this thread and so I will leave it. I suspect that you will follow with some other bit of illogic or smarminess, but I want you to remember that I, and many other readers of this forum, will be laughing at you for your idiotic claim and your utter failure to justify it. Hahahahahahahahahaha.

I wonder what kind of mentality produces statements like that.

Evidently I was wrong when I posted that I thought you should be unbanned.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 18, 11, 10:55 #188

Des, out of interest, how many encounters have you had with Polish hooligans, particularly Legia ones?

Still, your claim that "Polish people support you" is indeed amusing - take a look at this -

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/30/polish-club-legia-roll-out-jihad-banner -for-israeli-side.html

“Some Legia fans have been known for anti-Semitic and extreme-right behaviour for years and they had a chance to express their hatred of Jews again when Legia played an Israeli team, this time adopting a pseudo-Islamist guise,”said Pankowski

And this, from the deputy head of security for the PZPN -

“Legia should pay the price for this. A fine is the most likely penalty. And UEFA may even ban Legia fans from the second leg in Tel Aviv,” Starczewski told the daily Gazeta Wyborcza.

And - even Legia themselves -

Club spokesman Michal Kocieba said Legia were also investigating.

“We certainly didn’t approve the display of this banner,” he said.

Gotta love Americans telling Polish people what they should and shouldn't do!

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 18, 11, 11:19 #189

While we're at it, Des, take a look at this article -

http://www.sport.pl/pilka/1,65042,10670864,Liga_Europejska__10_tysiecy _euro_kary_za_transparent.html

Na trybunie zajmowanej przez najbardziej zagorzałych fanów z Łazienkowskiej pojawił się wielki transparent "Jihad Legia". Napis wykonano czcionką stylizowaną na alfabet arabski. Kibice nie zareagowali na apele spikera o powstrzymanie się od zachowań o charakterze rasistowskim.

Essentially, the banner was unfurled by the hooligan area, and they were asked repeatedly over the loudspeakers not to engage in this behaviour.

They ignored the wishes of their team - which shows the kind of mentality that they have.

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Dec 18, 11, 15:35 #190

delphiandomine:

Des, out of interest, how many encounters have you had with Polish hooligans, particularly Legia ones?

For one last time I will point out that having never encountered soccer hooligans does nor preclude one's ability to judge whether or not the "Jihad Legia" banner unfurled by fans at a game warranted punishment for the Legia team. It doesn't matter if there is a history of hooliganism around the team. This thread is about a specific instance of fans displaying a banner not about fans being violent. Claiming that one needs to have met soccer hooligans before one's opinion on this matter has merit is both illogical and stupid.

delphiandomine:

Still, your claim that "Polish people support you" is indeed amusing

Pawain and other Polish people on this thread are of my opinion regarding this matter. If you are amused by this I suggest you think about the fact that the only people on this thread that are of your opion on this matter are your cadre of nasty British expatriates. That is truly amusing. I am leaving this thread for good as responding to the stupidity of this squad is tiresome. I leave you all with my initial opinion on the subject which hasn't changed and which Poles and others on the forum have endorsed:

Des Essientes:

If this team is fined one can only shake one's head and chalk it up to the innate Polish talent for novel graphic design, and teasing, coupled with humorlessness at that soccer league's governing board.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 18, 11, 15:38 #191

Des Essientes:

For one last time I will point out that having never encountered soccer hooligans does nor preclude one's ability to judge whether or not the "Jihad Legia" banner unfurled by fans at a game warranted punishment for the Legia team. It doesn't matter if there is a history of hooliganism around the team. This thread is about a specific instance of fans displaying a banner not about fans being violent. Claiming that one needs to have met soccer hooligans before one's opinion on this matter has merit is both illogical and stupid.

Let's see - all the qualified authorities on the subject (the PZPN, Legia Warszawa themselves and head of the UEFA anti-racism unit in Poland) have all criticised the banner, as has the mainstream media commentators and generally everyone except the Legia hooligans themselves. Quite obviously, you're in a minority of one.

Des, do you know why the "Jihad Legia" banner even exists? What was it created for? here's a clue - it has nothing to do with the events on the pitch.

Des Essientes:

Des Essientes: If this team is fined one can only shake one's head and chalk it up to the innate Polish talent for novel graphic design, and teasing, coupled with humorlessness at that soccer league's governing board.

We don't want humour in our football governing bodies. We want professionalism and impartiality.

Leave humour for the comedians.

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Dec 18, 11, 17:30 #192

Des Essientes:

Claiming that one needs to have met soccer hooligans before one's opinion on this matter has merit is both illogical and stupid.

bing !

delphiandomine:

all the qualified authorities on the subject (the PZPN, Legia Warszawa themselves and head of the UEFA anti-racism unit in Poland) have all criticised the banner, as has the mainstream media commentators and generally everyone except the Legia hooligans themselves. Quite obviously, you're in a minority of one.

Exactly delph - they are overpaid as-holes doing what is expected of them - being PC and please PC brigade.
Not everyone, most people do no give a damn and many see noting wrong with it. Few odd individuals can share you sentiment but thats all.
Why are you even interested in the issue.

delphiandomine:

We don't want humour in our football governing bodies. We want professionalism and impartiality.

YES SIR !
Thats what has been bothering me all along - you have no sense of humor. Sad really.

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Dec 18, 11, 18:03 #193

Isn't it funny how it is Poles or those with Polish blood that are calling for humour when so many who walk around Polish streets don't give humour a second thought?! I-S, you live in Britain now, I think. Or you certainly have close ties. DE, you live in Cali. I think a lot of Poles here wouldn't see it as that funny. It just needs a certain type to appreciate it.

I think the most salient point is that quite a few Poles still act as if there is a war going on. Many still act like there are Russians on the streets and that a form of jihad is thus in order. It sunk deep into the Polish psyche but Poland shrugged off communism 22 years ago. Time to move on and start broadening horizons. Part of which is accepting that the Israeli team, rightly or wrongly, would take offence to such a banner.

Better safe than sorry is tame, DE? Wow, do you take that extra shot before hitting the road in your car? Do you forget about condoms when plowing a girl? I wonder if we have the same conception of safe.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Dec 18, 11, 19:43 #194
delphiandomine: Des, do you know why the "Jihad Legia" banner even exists? What was it created for? here's a clue - it has nothing to do with the events on the pitch. really? just joking? huuuummmooorrr ;) Seanus: I think the most salient point is that quite a few Poles still act as if there is a war going on. maybe, i would rather guess that they are back in it...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 18, 11, 19:57 #195
Sascha, you are making less sense than you usually do, mein freund. Sorry, my friend. What did you mean?

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Edited by: pawian Dec 18, 11, 19:58 #196

Des Essientes:

Pawain and other Polish people on this thread are of my opinion regarding this matter.

Yes, I am still amused, especially after reading my very first post in this thread:

To many the unfurling of the giant banner was a distasteful act which stunk of antisemitism. Written in Arabic-style letters, the green banner was construed by many as a thumb in the eye to Hapoel and moreover the Jewish people at large.
However, the case of the Jihad banner may be a little more complex.
As reported by TheNews.Pl, “editor of the Hebrew Section at Polish Radio’s External Service, Jaroslaw Kociszewski, who was at the game, says that despite the sign displayed before the match saying ‘Legia Jihad’ – which can be seen during many domestic fixtures at the Warsaw stadium – Legia fans were boisterous, but generally well behaved. ‘I heard no anti-Semitic chanting and saw no aggression,’ Kociszewksi says… ‘You can see the Jihad banner at many Legia home games,’ he adds.”

Guys, remember, Jihad Legia isn`t the same as Jews to Gas!

Stop being so hysterical about innocent stadium art! :):):):) I say innocent because a banner like that compared to other violent acts of hooliganism is a piece of cake, really.

Another case is how I would feel if Israeli soccer fans displayed a giant banner with Blitzkrieg 1939 slogan at a match in Israel? Would I be annoyed by their lack of sensitivity or amused by the ingenuity of provocation which might provide sport victory?

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Dec 18, 11, 20:05 #197

Seanus:

Sascha, you are making less sense than you usually do, mein freund. Sorry, my friend. What did you mean?

ok. no pro. :) happens...sh1t happens...

those poles you were referring to, i was aiming at them and thinking, that after a quiet period they are back in it, when seeing what kind of lying present they got. eu, nato etc. so they have again to fight for their rights...just like after 45...

Seanus:

Part of which is accepting that the Israeli team, rightly or wrongly, would take offence to such a banner.

most of the israeli will take that banner as an offense. they are drilled to represent their country and therefore there is no place for individual thinking.

hope makes sense, now. ,)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 18, 11, 21:30 #198
Just out of interest, sascha, what rights does NATO take away from Poland? The EU limits all signatory states' sovereignty in the same way due to Costa Vs ENEL 1964. Most Israelis, rightly or wrongly, are paranoid regarding potential attacks on their state. Individual thinking is emerging but they have inculcated a huge degree of togetherness and such banners will only be seen as provocation.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,415 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Dec 18, 11, 23:06 #199
Seanus: such banners will only be seen as provocation. Yes! But I am sure Israeli football fans are aware of the fact that the ultimate result of successful provocation is the opponent`s victory.

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Dec 19, 11, 11:00 #200

To an Israeli, Jihad most commonly means the military wing of Hamas. However, I hardly see Legia hools as being overly aware of the Palestinian cause, still less supporting it. I have said in a couple of places above that such banners should not be unfurled at football stadia but, you know, this is not an ideal world we live in. Just like I support Banksy in his artistic endeavours (tasteful graffiti), we should bring it back to the people to state a message if they really believe in it. I'm fed up with some jerk or other declaring that they have to get back to peace talks. FFS, the politicians DON'T WANTpeace. Obama talked of the 1967 borders and then threatened to veto the very measure he himself had proposed just a year earlier. Playing around with lives like that is just wrong. Obama and Hillary Clinton actively contribute to a regime which has shown itself to be a brutal occupier. So, although I think a dubious precedent would be set, one part of me would appreciate a banner against the Zionist regime. If an address is channelled to the govt and not the people, that's fine by me! Let the people speak! I'm sure some Israelis would see that those fans were not having a go at them but their regime.

peterwegThreads: 35 Posts: 1,997 Joined: Feb 16, 07 ♂	Dec 19, 11, 11:55 #201
Seanus: To an Israeli, Jihad most commonly means the military wing of Hamas. Really? Maybe they simply understand that it means Holy War and in the case of football its aptly applied. If it means something else to Israeli's then that is their problem

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Dec 19, 11, 12:04 #202

It's not apply applied as I showed above with the Rangers-Celtic reference. There is a split within the Christian religion there (not wholly understood by them at all, I might add) but please explain to me how fellow Catholic Poles fight a Holy War with fellow Catholic Poles of another football team. As a Scot who has sth akin to that but not fully that at all (The Old Firm), I find it to be a joke.

Jews are amongst the most religious people out there (in the main) so you are telling me here that Holy War is not a problem for them?

Read matchboxes much, peterweg?

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Dec 19, 11, 18:21 #203
this thread is actually proving how sports can be manipulated for politics, just because of a small bunch of idiots. most of the fans just go to football, to get drunk, not to be with the boring wife or whatever. ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 19, 11, 18:25 #204
Ah, but you are not allowed to be drunk in a football stadium but you very much can be in a Parliamentary house as we've seen on several occasions ;)

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,862 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Dec 19, 11, 18:37 #205
Seanus: Ah, but you are not allowed to be drunk in a football stadium how come? not anymore? are they selling just water there now? when i was last time watching hannover 96 they had real beer ;) Seanus: but you very much can be in a Parliamentary house as we've seen on several occasions ;) of course, those ´gentlemen and women´are sth special....

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 19, 11, 18:38 #206
You won't be allowed in drunk or with drink to a Polish football stadium. They'll simply turn you away. The Russians and Ukrainians took that a step farther :) :) They did it in style, like they were copying judges ;)

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 19, 11, 21:39 #207
peterweg: Really? Maybe they simply understand that it means Holy War and in the case of football its aptly applied. If it means something else to Israeli's then that is their problem Actually, "Jihad Legia" has nothing to do with the events on the pitch.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,415 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Dec 28, 11, 14:42 #208
pawian: Final decision of UEFA - Legia has to pay 10.000 euros for the banner. Ajax Amsterdam also has to pay 10.000 for its drunken fan who attacked the rival team`s goalkeeper. He kicked the attacker back and got a red card in result. The match was stopped and will be repeated in January. Slowly we are getting to know the football misdemeanor price guide. It seems everything costs 10 K.

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