PolishForums.com
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide
Unanswered | Archives
Poland for Expats and Tourists Witamy, Guest | PF Members | Gold Members

Polish Forums / Sports, Recreation /

Polish Bjj practitioners= high level players.


page 1 of 2:  1  2  Next » posts: 37

Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
Edited by: Foreigner4  Aug 5, 11, 13:47    #1
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has developed here in Poland over the last 10 years to the point now that at any given international tournament, Polish competitors are always in the running for top place.
It's really incredible if you know anything about the sport and its beginnings in Poland. In 2001/2002, you'd be lucky to get a dozen guys in a weight class; no belts, no ranks just any given weight class. There might have been a couple Russians or neighboring Slavic competitors but it was minimal and only started happening around 2003. There weren't but a couple top level instructors willing to come here for the briefest of seminars.
But my oh my how things have come along. Maybe it's the crazy ultra-competitive nature of Poles, maybe it's the practicality of it in its translation to mixed martial arts but by and large, the progress that has happened here is due to dedication. I see some of the same guys now at competitions and seminars now that I saw a decade ago. People really stick with it here and that's a really encouraging thing to see. Now I hear about some Brazilians coming over to teach/compete and live here. There are Polish blackbelts here that compete on the world stage and that spells A-M-A-Z-I-N-G quality of instructors for the next generation to learn under them.

One spin-off of this is the quality of MMA competitor that is coming out of Poland is very unique and will garner more and more headlines IF:
a) the facilities improve with the talent
b) someone can convince them to adapt more throws into their arsenal
c) the younger generation doesn't wimp-out.

So if you are a parent then look into this for your kids. Whether they compete or not it's just very good exercise for the mind and the brain. If you're a teenager - mid twenties then you should investigate the nearest club. Some clubs have thugs and some have chill dudes and some have a mix but almost all clubs these days have very very good talent. Seriously get into it while it's still affordable.

If you want to know anything about a club/instructors and their reputation then give me a couple days and I'll give a PM if you agree to keep it confidential (that's important cause there are some good guys here that claim to be great [for profit of course] and i don't want to rock the boat).

SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 6, 11, 16:41    #2
The local instructor here is very good. He has competed to a high level in different countries and he really looks tough. BJJ is a way of life for many and Brazilians adore it. Look at Werdum or Silva, excellent practitioners. It would appear to be the most popular martial art of choice for MMA top dogs. One can sense how dangerous it is by looking at Overeem in his fight against Werdum. Overeem is a high level Abu Dhabi winner but still wouldn't go to ground with Fabricio. That says sth!
SebastianThreads: 8
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb 16, 10
 Aug 8, 11, 23:05    #3
Yup, BJJ is a must if a mixed martial artist wants to be a top fighter. But you need everything. You need striking, wrestling, clinch game, and BJJ/Judo. Sambo is meh. The only successful sambo MMA fighter is Fedor Emelianenko. But you are absolutely right about the Werdum vs Overeem fight.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08
[Suspended]
 Aug 8, 11, 23:14    #4
The only successful sambo MMA fighter is Fedor Emelianenko.


Even Emelianenko got found out quite badly - which is why he stayed out of the UFC, I suspect.

I'd say that GSP proved against Koscheck that striking is every bit as important as the rest.

What was interesting recently was watching how Lesnar was manhandled by both Carwin and Velasquez, despite being a truly world class wrestler. I think it's what makes it such an interesting sport - you can be great in one area, but you need everything.
SebastianThreads: 8
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb 16, 10
 Aug 9, 11, 00:08    #5
What was interesting recently was watching how Lesnar was manhandled by both Carwin and Velasquez, despite being a truly world class wrestler. I think it's what makes it such an interesting sport - you can be great in one area, but you need everything.


Yup. Exactly
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 15:57    #6
What you guys didn't know but now do know is that Cain was also an NCAA champion. He is probably a better wrestler for mma than lesnar because his style of wrestling is less bullying and more suited to scrambles. Having said that, Lesnar having 12 inches of his intestines removed likely affected his preparation. What annoyed me about the fight was:
A) everyone talks about lesnar having a weak chin but if you look at what put him on queer street and started his tumbling routine was a shot that landed behind his ear.
B) Lesnar employed a horrible strategy. He should have known Cain has great hands and great wrestling so he should have known he was going to take a few and be on his back but he still used some elementary level bullrush strategy. He should have never been given the road he was given to the belt- it really has worked against him and never allowed him to properly grow as an mma athlete.
C) We were robbed of a better match than it was due to the factors I mentioned.
Lesnar has a great chin. Lesnar has ok hands
Lesnar has a horrible reaction to getting tagged. Lesnar has bad footwork for striking.

Speaking of Fedor- Look at when he had Dan on the ground and look at the failure to secure any kind of control position. He didn't even pursue it. Some guys just fall in love with their hands and forget about the other aspects to the game, then, they fall victim to them.

I worry about Polish MMA though, I'm worried that the talent will get pulled out of here and thrown to the wolves instead of brought up slowly. In some ways I think Marcin Held wasn't quite ready for his fight with Chandler. Having said that, I don't know if Chandler has fought since then and it may well be due to the knee bar he was in. Marcin says he heard and felt multiple "pops" in the guy's leg...
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 17:38    #7
Blagoi Ivanov is 4-0 and is the guy that beat Fedor. He had some fights scrapped for apparently not being MMA. He's a sambo champ! Aleksander Emelianenko is 17-4 and is also a 3-time Russian national champ.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 21:42    #8
I'm not sure where you're going with that.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 21:56    #9
I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying right here :)

Sambo practitioners could be strong in MMA.

Name me any Polish BJJ guy that gets remotely close to Werdum. The standard is still not in the upper echelons of international competition though it could be.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 23:01    #10
"Upper echelons" of the bjj world? There are European and World Champion tournament winners in Poland whether you know about it or not, they're here and they're laying the foundation for younger kids to reap the benefits from in the future.

Seanus, I'm not sure if you're trying to create an argument for the sake of it or not but if you reread my post I think you'll be hard pressed to point out where I stated anything relating to Werdum. What does Fabricio Werdum have to do with the spirit of my post?

That being said, you're over-rating Werdum. He beat Fedor for a variety of reasons but size, age, and a predictable strategy from Fedor are the big ones. Silva and Henderson have had similar success so I don't understand your sudden fascination with Fabricio (seems like a cool guy though). Alistair wouldn't go to the ground with Werdum because that it would be throwing away his advantage, we could similarly ask why Fabricio butt-flopped the whole time and didn't try to force Alistair to the mat. The obvious answer is that his wrestling sucks and he'd have eaten knees.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 23:03    #11
Who, for example?

Eh, he's the World Champion and a great benchmark, that's what. He's synonymous with BJJ
SebastianThreads: 8
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb 16, 10
 Aug 9, 11, 23:20    #12
That being said, you're over-rating Werdum. He beat Fedor for a variety of reasons but size, age, and a predictable strategy from Fedor are the big ones. Silva and Henderson have had similar success so I don't understand your sudden fascination with Fabricio (seems like a cool guy though). Alistair wouldn't go to the ground with Werdum because that it would be throwing away his advantage, we could similarly ask why Fabricio butt-flopped the whole time and didn't try to force Alistair to the mat. The obvious answer is that his wrestling sucks and he'd have eaten knees.


The main reason Fedor lost to Werdum was because he was careless. He jumped into his guard, he got out the first time, and went in again. Once Werdum slapped on that arm-triangle choke, Fedor was done. I don't think Werdum is overrated. Werdum, Demain Maia, Jacare and Roger Gracie have the best BJJ in MMA. Only thing about Werdum is that his wrestling is not good.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 23:21    #13
Good post, Sebastian. Maia is phenomenal too :) There was no way he lost to Mark Munoz. That was a crappy verdict.
SebastianThreads: 8
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb 16, 10
 Aug 9, 11, 23:23    #14
Good post, Sebastian. Maia is phenomenal too :) There was no way he lost to Mark Munoz. That was a crappy verdict.


Hehe, thanks. I agree about Maia as well. To me, he did a tad bit better in the fight. Its crazy how fast he is improving his game. His striking improved drastically in such a short time.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 23:26    #15
These guys have learned from the Gracies that there is much more to MMA than BJJ, important as it is. Pudzian has shown us that strength comes up short without the rest. Akebono has clearly demonstrated that pushing and smothering doesn't go far. HMC that height doesn't always win fights etc etc. BJJ is a solid discipline and I'm still waiting for For4 to come up with some known names.
SebastianThreads: 8
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb 16, 10
 Aug 9, 11, 23:31    #16
I'm still waiting for For4 to come up with some known names.


Polish BJJ artists?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 9, 11, 23:35    #17
Yeah....Pudzian is a BJ artist only ;)
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
Edited by: Foreigner4  Aug 10, 11, 10:35    #18
I don't think Werdum is overrated. Werdum, Demain Maia, Jacare and Roger Gracie have the best BJJ in MMA. Only thing about Werdum is that his wrestling is not good.

I did not state Werdum is over-rated, I stated Seanus is over-rating Werdum. He's a solid HW. who's biggest advantage (other than his technique) is his length and recovery once getting tagged. He can beat anyone but can get dominated by someone who employs a conservative but chippy top game. And it's inexcusable for someone at that level to have nonexistent take downs, regardless of the kind.
There was no way he lost to Mark Munoz. That was a crappy verdict.

I completely agree. Maia is tons of fun to watch and his willingness to test his striking is another reason why this is so.
BJJ is a solid discipline and I'm still waiting for For4 to come up with some known names.

Where in my post did I write Polish bjj players are "known names?" What constitutes a "known name" in your definition?
Eh, he's the World Champion and a great benchmark, that's what. He's synonymous with BJJ

That person doesn't exist in Poland and I never stated they do. But probably Maciek Polok is going to be that person down the road. Marcin Held is going to be that person. I honestly have no idea what point it is you're trying to raise. I'm losing patience with you in that you seem to be angling for an argument. What are you actually trying to get at?

Look at the original post, the point you seem to be taking issue with simply isn't there. I'll condense it for you so that it's easier for you to understand: the bjj grass roots movement is really starting to produce some strong international contenders. You're going to see better and better guys competing for Poland in the future.

Do you compete here? Do you train here? Do you follow international tournaments? It's pretty impressive to see so many guys have stuck with it here for years.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 16:52    #19
I'm not overrating Werdum at all. I don't think he is top 5 in the world but he does have some of the best BJJ out there. I agree that he has holes in his game and not even attempting to strike with Overeem shows that he is rather a one-dimensional fighter with an overreliance on the ground game.

A known name is, for me, sb of note who has won sth of merit in a recognised international tournament. It doesn't need to be top drawer la creme de la creme. Just sb with some international stature.

So your point is that they are up-and-coming fighters but not yet fully fledged? Fair enough! I just don't know of any top notch dudes as of yet though there may be prospects.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 17:59    #20
known?
Ok then Maciek Polok won 1st place a year (or 2) ago in Beijing at the Fila world's.
Serioulsy man, now's a great time to get involved if you're not already- lots of guys are out there with solid resumes and the prices are still reasonable.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 18:03    #21
Cheers for the thumbs up, For4. I'll check out Mr Polok. I watched the BJJ tourney in Bytom (on Youtube, LOL) and it was really impressive. Some technical displays to marvel at. You are based not far from me so Bytom is easily accessible. Also, if you are interested, I could hook you up with the local teacher here. He's a hard guy!
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 18:51    #22
Bytom? I remember I was in a full contact bjj tourney there many moons ago.
I train at the club here in Tychy though, there's no shortage of training partners here. I've actually been pretty lucky to train regularly with 2 of the better guys in the country. I get to do wrestling with another fighter here when neither of us are injured, this is rare though...
So Seanus do you yourself go to the club there? I can find you some info if you need it.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 19:06    #23
No, I stick to footie these days. I did Judo for 4 years. I know a local instructor here.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 19:14    #24
Yeah I did Judo in Germany while I was there. I don't fully understand why Judo isn't more popular in Poland than it is. Perhaps it has something to do with the organization aspects of it. Any thoughts?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 19:18    #25
It does surprise me as one would have thought that Nastula would have popularised it. Let's not forget that he gave Minotauro, A Emelianenko and Josh Barnett a good run for their money. He has made it popular in his neck of the woods but not really beyond. It's hard to say why it hasn't taken off more but it could just be that BJJ is seen as sth 'cooler'.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
Edited by: Foreigner4  Aug 10, 11, 19:28    #26
Yeah, Nastula ranks up there in terms of being thrown to the wolves in MMA. I can't remember for sure but I think there's only a Japanese dude that possibly had a harder first three fights and Moti Horenstein (a long time ago).Someone must have been angry at those guys:/

Maybe Judo just wrecks people earlier. I remember being privy to a training session specifically for some hooligans. First takedown was a simple little thing, suddenly there's some muscle bound killer screaming in pain with a destroyed leg. To this day I still don't quite know how it was possible.
It's a shame about the lack of Judo because throws are actually fun, just moving to find the set up is fun. That reminds me of one thing though- grip fighting, that's a good way to develop some sensitive skin on your knuckles over the short run, maybe that turns people off too?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 19:37    #27
His name was what got him those fights. Had he had more stamina, he may well have scored a victory or two there. He had the measure of Big Nog and wasn't scared to go to ground with him. A Emelianenko was slightly better but Nastula almost caught him. He took nandrolone Vs Barnett according to some sources but Josh is hardly controversy free either. That fight could have gone either way.

The worst thing is being caught with an ippon throw. I had to fight the Scottish champion once and he caught me with a wazari throw. Quite painful but an ippon would have winded me no end. Grabbing the lapel is sth I saw in the BJJ training sessions so I can't see how that would deter people from giving it a go. Maybe they need more mixed sessions where you can demonstrate kami-shiho-gatame and tati-shiho-gatame :) :) Judo is excellent in jostling for position and the right hold Vs momentum/balance for a throw. On the ground can be a little boring for some but the variety of holds can keep the interest factor. Tbh, I never understood osaekomi (holds on) or taketa (holds broken). Can you explain that?
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
Edited by: Foreigner4  Aug 10, 11, 20:20    #28
I have never had and will never have a grasp of Judo terminology. Tell me what's going on and I'll know what you're talking about but it'd be like me asking you if you prefer using a wizzer for a cross face set up; a reverse body lock to dump; a lateral drop or an inside trip? If you don't know the terms it makes it all sound more complicated than asking if you prefer using a certain kind of arm control (single leg defence) for different attacks.

Having typed all that out, I looked up Osaekomi on youtube and the first video I saw just looked like basic transitions from one ideal control position to another. I'm afraid beyond that I can't be of much use. Can you clarify what you mean?

Regarding Nastula, yeah I guess the Japanese had some reverence for his Judo name but still, a lot of people (in the mma community outside of Poland if you can believe it) still refer to him as one of the wasted talents in that he was never "brought up" properly.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 20:25    #29
Holds on and holds broken but I never knew what to do when the arbiter shouted it out to me. I guess I should stop being such a lazy bum and look it up.

Judo is bigger in Russia but, even then, it isn't their no1 sport. Putin has raised its stock but it still could use more oomph. Maybe some are sceptical of its self defence claims. It's fine teaching theory but if soon knife-wielding lunatic sets upon you, good luck. Basic instinct and luck can work well.

What I liked about judo was the flow of it. You had to bide your time for an opening and then sweep your opponent. Sometimes you had to settle for the lesser points but the weight distribution aspect helps in fighting.
Foreigner4Threads: 22
Posts: 1,990
Joined: Nov 18, 07
 Aug 10, 11, 20:32    #30
Wait are you talking about that hold down rule?
It's funny you should mention knife wielding and instincts. I was just reminding myself the other day of some dudes who developed a defense system based on instinctual movements. They looked at the wounds sustained by knife attack victims who had defended themselves. Lacerations on the hands and forearms represented the overwhelming majority of the wounds. They surmised that our innate reaction to many attacks is a forearm overhead block type movement. They did some further study and sure as shyt our reflex to this type of movement is extremely quick- like it's hard wired into us. So now they have some system that incorporates what comes naturally to us to help us get the fcuk out of dodge quickly and safely.


page 1 of 2:  1  2  Next »

Home / Sports, Recreation / Unanswered [this forum] | Similar


Similar discussions:

Where to get football tickets for a couple of Polish soccer league in Poland?  Football in and around Warsaw


Random: Anybody know of any cheap delivery services from the UK to Poland???

Only registered and logged-in users may post here. Please log in or register.


47 [Guests - 40 / Members - 7] users on live forums now


Home | Unanswered | Archives | Random | Statistics Time in Poland: 02:30 / May 27

About Us | Contact Us | Rules, Privacy | Poland Advertising

© 2005-12 PolishForums.com