Who suffered more, victims of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, or victims

Sweden doesnt mention the crimes of the USSR because it has sympathies with Stalin's Russia?

Maybe not sympathies to Stalin's regime, however sympathies between communists and socialist are well known. Former French president Mitterand was proud of communists in his goverment. Romano Prodi in Italy formed coalition with communists. Those groups like each other so much that they think that every accusations against one of them will backfire against second group as well. Thus socialists were always very good in not mentioning about communist crimes.

Don't be shy, I will be glad reading how do you justify such practices in Sweden and many other countries as well.

Just to say. All these victims suffered, otherwise they would not be victims, eh? You cannot really compare this to eachother as it would quickly turn out to be something like "yeah, but my dad is much stronger than your dad". Let's just say they all suffered severely and actually it does not matter who suffered more as suffering is always a bad thing.

M-g

I did that a couple of posts ago.

Not an issue for me, what the Swedes do doesn't put me up or down.

Kilkline:

-the fact that this was an attempt to exterminate an entire race

Prove/document this...are the Jews a race?...I assume this is whom you are referring to...I do not consider Elie Weisel, Simon Weisenthal, the Israeli government or Steven Spielberg as reliable historical sources.


Please document these 'hundreds of years of persecutions'...were they in Poland?...in Great Britain?...in Germany?...in Russia?...please describe them...would you consider the murder of millions of Christian and ordinary Russians by Bolshevik Jews a persecution or a pogrom?...I look forward to your reply.

Ok, do you question the Holocaust as an attempt to wipe out an entire ppl from the face of the Earth? Think again. If the Holocaust is a lie, where the hell did 75% of my family go? They all decided during the War on the same day, 18th of April 1943, to leave for Eastern Europe and never come back nor let the only relative they had, my grandfather who was underground elsewhere in Holland know where they were/are?

And no, the Jews are not a race, they are a Semitic ppl, just like the Arabs, Syrians and Persians.

Edit: words like Holocaust and Pogrom are Russian, maybe that's a hint where Anti-Semitism started?

M-G

1) I do not know what happened to your family...they, along with millions of others may have been victims of a horrible war...it is known that after Poland was partitioned by the Nazis & the Communists, many Jews migrated to the Soviet Union...now as to the fate of these people, some were moved by the Soviets further eastward, either to Gulags or resettlement zones...many were killed by SS Aktion groups, and also by Ukranian and Russian partisans...I sympathise with you and hope that the Father in heaven has taken those who died into his Eternal bosom.
2) Eastern Jews are not Semites; they are descendants of a Turkic people, known in earlier time as Khazars/Kagans.
3) The word 'holocaust' is a translation from the Greek, meaning 'burnt offering'...this word has been appropriated by various Jewish/Zionist groups to describe what happened to their people in WWII...I would describe the entire 20th Century as a 'holocaust', as Germans, Brits, Americans, Russians, Poles, Ukranians &
Jews were offered as a burnt offering to Satan...would you describe the mass slaughter and starvation of millions of Orthodox Christian Russians & Ukranians by the Jewish Bolsheviks as a holocaust or a pogrom?...How about the brutal murder of the Czar's family, committed by the Jew Yuritsky, on orders from Lenin & Trotzy?...was this a 'burnt offering' to the devil?...did you know that, on the record, we have statements by Jewish Bolsheviks calling for extermination of 90% of the Russian people?

Yes they were, "Hitler" and "Stalin" had a plan to wipe out "Polish" reguardless of the God they prayed to. Many are educated to "Jewish" plight, what about the other victims?

To the Nazis they were.




You want me to describe the hundreds of years of anti-Semitism that has existed throughout Europe in a post on an internet forum? I believe they've been documented many times before and I believe you know what they are. Why would you like me to do this?



Nope, because it didnt happen.

Why did this post end up being about the "Holocaust"? There are others that have not been noticed, "Catholics" and for 50 years have been forgotten.

You say there were not millions of others, not just "Catholic" but what about "China" and other victims. I am sorry but "Jewish" are not the only ones and if you recall "Poland" has always been "Christians".

Actually, I don't like the term Jewish Bolsjeviks. It implies that all the Bolsjeviks were Jewish, while in fact only one, Leon Trotzki, was a Jew and we all know what happened to him.
In fact, I know exactly what happened to my family. It's why I became a Historian: one half went to Bergen-Belsen and from there to Treblinka where they were gassed immediately; the other half went to Auswitsch and got gassed within three weeks after arrival.
I do not deny that there have been atrocities against other ppl in Eastern Europe, this would be a fact to be taken for granted, considering the depraved ideology of the Nazis, but I cannot stand that the same ppl who complain that the Nazis were so cruel to them in the same sentense say that nothing happened to the Jews and that it's all a big Jewish conspiracy. Jewish were slaughtered for the mere fact that they were Jewish, not because their country was at war with Nazi-Germany.
And the Jews ARE a semitic ppl, the Kazhar theory is nonsense, made up by some deranged mind. Jesus Christ was a Jew and he lived in today's Israel, so how can Jews be anything else than semitic? Hatred against Jews is generally called Anti-Semitism. Wonder where that came from.

M-G

You know what,No offence guys but I havent even bothered reading any of the posts in this thread,simple one and only reason..

THE WHOLE FRIGGIN IDEA OF "WHO SUFFERED MOST" IS FRIGGIN INSANE!!!!!!!
A BULLETS A BULLETS A BULLET AND A DEAD CHILD ETC ETC!

The fact that 20% in eastern Poland that were victims of "Stalin" were Jewish leave "Others" at 80%. Can this be about them also. Is this also not proof that this was not directed toward "Jewish" but "Poland" the people.




"ITS NOT", it's about the Polish victims of "Stalin" that is over looked unless we are talking "Jewish" crime. Then it's important.

Maybe the question should be who is the biggest TYRANT then the answer would be NONE of the above, and it has to be G. W. Bush!

Then you better do some reading on "Stalin" and "Hitler" to name a few.

He hasn't had as long as them C but 1 million dead and 4 million refugees in 5 years and still counting it won't take too long for him to over take!

Exactly what I said in a previous posting in this thread.

M-G (although, I did not use capitals:) shame on you ishatu2:) )

Sorry, what are you replying to? Because you've quoted me but your response has nothing to do with anything I've said.

To be honest, I'm going to leave this thread alone because the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think Holocaust denying is a good indicator of a person's character and general mental health. People who do this almost always believe Sept 11 was an inside job and that the moon landings were faked.

Feel free to blame who you want for whatever you want though remember anti-semitism is the ideology of those who think they've been cheated. The key word here is 'think'.

Kilkline:

Nope, because it didnt happen.

It is a historical fact, but inconvenient to the Jews...start here:

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/communist.html



I would suggest that refusing to examine and face the facts of history is indicative of a person's character; all evil leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, and all people's and nations perpetrate evil for their own self-interest.

Say what. Cheated out of what the trillion $ "Holocaust". Sadly I feel even the victims of "Jewish" decent are cheated. How much have the victims really recieved?



I was referring to your "it didn't happen". Are you going to tell me next that there were no "Gulags" and "Katyn" was not a "Soviet" crime?

I DO NOT DENY THE HOLOCAUST. I deny the "Jewish" being the only victims and "Hitler" being the only criminal.

With this said if you still don't get it, look at the post under compensation from property loss in eastern Poland from deportation to gulags. All of a sudden the "Jewish" groups are saying it's part of the "Holocaust", a claim that up until now has been denied in the USA.

Which ones? I don't know about where you live, but every school I've been to has never come close to show how bad it was for the native americans in their history books. All they say is "Ya...we took their land and had a couple fights with them."

Lot's of information there. Who writes these history books? White americans who are ashamed of what their ancestors did to people who rightfully owned this land, but when they ask for that land back they freak out sayin it belongs to the US government.

Whatever we are getting off topic. Look, bad things have happened to people for as long as we have written records of civilization.

Arguements about who suffered more, who owned up to causing that pain, why aren't we all getting recognition for suffering, etc. are all a bunch of BS. So some events in history have been put into the mainstream and others pushed aside to sit in the dark. Things like the Holocaust have happened before, but are just not tlaked about.

The nazis killed millions of jews, Stalin killed millions of Poles, Ukranians, etc. These two are the most popular today. What about the millions of native americans that the aztecs sacrificed to the sun god? What about the countless chinese that the mongols killed under the Khans? The native Americans killed by Americans? The blacks inslaved by the whites? What about all those that the British have brought suffering to, like the Scots and the people within their colonies like India? The Crusaders slaughtered muslims after they captured Jerusalem. Muslims on a Jihad killed thousands of southern europeans. Romans slaughtered or inslaved anyone they captured. Persians laid waste to Greek cities. Greeks did the same to each other and, once unified, did so to their enemies. Spanish conquistadors brought down mighty south american empires. Egyptians enslaved the Jews long before anyone else. Assyrians murdered countless others as well. THE LIST GOES ON FOREVER!

Why even argue about any of this BS? Yes, Katyn was horrible, so was the holocaust. Evil people came to power and did whatever they wanted. It's always happened and will most likely happen again.

People are ignorant to a lot of things, and they always will be. Every group of people alive today, regardless of nationality, has something to ashamed of. Some have more to be ashamed of then others, but that doesn't make them any worse than anyone else.

This is a stupid arguement, IMHO.

I thought to myself "oh brother, another one of this crazy lady's threads about doom and gloom." BUT after reading some of what she's trying to say (well how i have interpreted her), I am forced to (and i am reluctant to admit it given my impression of her) applaud her on this.

Yeah, it's a ridiculous question and I think she knows it. But she does lead us to the question of who we, as people and as societies, choose to empathize with. Why do we mourne or allow ourselves to get worked up over Hiroshima victims yet not think about Nagasaki? Why Aushwitz and not the Gulags? Why Pompeii but not Herculaneum? (just examples people, just examples)

These questions transcend into whole other realms of life and especially politics. Difficult questions that may lead us to uncomfortable answers.

Bravo Celinski!

You mention lack of some cases from ancient history to justify lack of recent communist crimes in schools. Who is projecting school programs? And why European leftists who do this always find enough time to use taxpayers money promote their entire agenda? But when questions of communist crimes arise, there is no time. This simply intentional plan to avoid this uncomfortable topic.



Sorry but this is another silly excuse to avoid uncomfortable topic. According to this logic you should not take part in any political discussions in this forum. You both just confirm my thesis about socialists and their hard work to avoid discussion about communist crimes in public schools.



??? Although I might agree with you about misleading term like "Jewish bolshevicks" however if you think that Trotsky was the only one I seriously suggest to refresh your memory. Maybe Trotsky is your hero because of what happened to him?



Yes, question arise who and how create views of public opinion. Also why Holocaust denial may be a reason to imprison somebody (what is against freedom of speech btw) but denial of Armenian genocide is nothing special (controversial). There are traces that Hitler was inspired by Armenian genocide.

In the big 4 of the Bolsjevik revolution, Lenin, Stalin, Kalinin and Trotzky, only Trotzky was a Jew. I not quite sure of Kalinin, but I am sure that Lenin and Stalin were no Jews. Most likely there were more Jews in the ranks of the Bolsjeviks, but I was merely aiming at the big guys. Of course there were more Jews as they were integral part of society. Heck, there were even a lot of patriotic Jews who fought in the German army in the First World War.

M-G

Why does she point the finger at dead dictators when the people of Iraq and Afgahnistan are suffering NOW under the bloody bombardment of America's "WAR PRESIDENT?"

Iraq -
Over one million killed - 1 000 000
Over 3.7 million refugees - 3 700 000
Out of a total population 29 000 000

The first two figures are rising all the time.

Would teaching of Stalins programs in schools have prevented this ?

I thought this is "Polish Forum"? I did not post Iraq question. Why is it so hard for some to speak about the "Polish" and what took place on the orders of "Stalin"?



Thank you and I think you hit the nail on the head.





Stalin and Hitler are both listed as Jewish.

You mentioned tyrants of the past and why it is important for children to be taught this. Learn from the lessons of the past so that it cannot happen today.
Iraq is relevant because similarities can be drawn to the horrors of the past - millions have been killed, millions more driven from their homes etc

Put in this context it is entirely relevant to a Polish forum.

Poles are being killed in Iraq too.

You did mention Pol Pot and Mao in your opening post thereby inviting wider comment.

From the artical:

“If the Forum remains in its current form, then it legitimizes the political control of the teaching of history. If the state withdraws the commission, it becomes a bizarre sort of admission that the victims of communist terror aren’t as deserving of the same attention as those of the Nazis.”



So when President Bush is no longer in power should we take Iraq out of all history books and not teach this part of history?