Will this relationship between Ukraine and Poland ever be healed?

Why do you feel the truth is not known by both sides?



Look at the amount of people that were involved with this "mixed history" and what took place. In the USA go to any Polish group and listen to the main issues. Each day brings new documents to light. This is not just an issue for Poland and Ukraine if we look at the families that had to leave communist Poland. Remember if you fought Russia in WW1 you were labled, "enemy of the Communist State".




Sometimes they got nothing, lost their country and buried 1/2 their families.

Carol

LOL. I know a thouthand of Ukrainians, no one of them hate Poland.


Yes, what a stereotyping. We have some 5-10% of Russian nationalists in Ukraine so what? Marginals. Ukrainians never elected Russian nationalists to Parliament. Many European countries have fifth colon. Poland had Ukrainian nationalists before "fixing" it with Vistula operation. Forget it.

So... be positive in this topic people. Ukrainians and Poles are friends for centuries. Krapka.

Thanks to music such as Nokturnal Mortum, many Poles and Ukrainians have discovered their common slavis brethren/roots. I get the impression that some Poles view Ukrainians with scepticism (based on behaviour at a wedding) but I feel that Poles have a healthy respect for things Ukrainian also. I don't think there's as big a rift as people make out but I'm neither Polish nor Ukrainian so my perspective isn't the best one

Do you know western Ukrainians?They do not hate,they are afraid,that is what I wrote.

Yes I do. They not afraid, nor hate. Rather they are suspicious like you are suspicious to a family member you broke up once. But they know Polish language, understand Polish culture and values, do you have a lot nighbors like that?..

If there is any country we should strenghten our relationships in present. It is Ukraina.

All the time I point on fact that nobody can understand Slav then other Slav. We can diverse on many questions, on many things but when one Slav has problem, all other Slavs feel uncomfortable. That`s how it is from the beginning of time.


I agree but, this way or another Ukraine will be all right- Ukrainian state, Ukrainian nation. And, you know that. But, if Poles abandon Serbs or if they can`t do anything for them, in this decisive moment, Serbian nation could be harmed for good or at least for very long time.

It is Polish duty to take stance on current situation in case with Serbian question. If Poles don`t have enough available informations just ask but, please don`t be so silent.

If among Poles on this forum there are people positioned in Catholic Church, I urge those brothers in Christ and in Slavdom to do something for Serbs that are oppressed today, to ask for destine of Catholic and Orthodox Serbs.

Poles are influential Catholic nation. Maybe, Polish voice can contribute to salvation of Serbian nation or at least save our endangered heritage and culture on the right side of Drina river. Don`t miss this opportunity to help us. Don`t hesitate now. We will remember and we will tell to our children to remember

Thank you in advance and God bless all your possible efforts

What would be the most benifitial help from the USA?

Serbs never ignored American interests, nor Russian, nor Polish. We tried even to behave according to German interests but, Germany pushed germanization of region too hard, particularly on Serbian ground. Also, in Slovenia, in Croatia. That was reason for collision of Serbian and German interests. Hungary served blindly to German interests and had its own imperial ambitions. Our interests also clash.

Hm, when you ask what USA can do. It would be nice if USA could stop to cut Serbian lands one by one and to stop deliver it to the German and Turkish interests who sees us as obstacle to their imperialism. USA should return to key principles of democracy and tolerance, instead to use its power as tool for oppression.


Serbs are positioned on border region of Catholic and Orthodox Churches where Churches clashes for prestige. Serbs (both, Catholic and Orthodox) are biggest victims of split among Christian Churches. So, re-union of Christianity can help us a lot of. Also, to chaos in the region greatly contributed the later aggressive invasion of Islam.

Biggest Serbian problem is high level of pressure on Serbs in dirrection of assimilation. That endanger our biological potentials. Our people was/is oppressed, heritage is oppressed, our language, culture.

Czechs gave good example what can be done for Serbs.

Czech government is among rare Slavic and European institutions which were able to found strength to ask for and demand preservation of Serbian heritage in moment when biggest powers of this world remodeled the Balkan.

See this link, full of valuable informations for those who seek to understand genesis of Serb-Croat antagonisms, to understand Serbian tragedy. Among else, it`s about region from where originates famous Serbian-American inventor and scientist Nikola Tesla, well known in the world.

http://www.serbnatlfed.org/Archives/Tesla/tesla-theeuropeanyears.htm

NIKOLA TESLA: The European Years
Part Two - The Family, Childhood and Youth
by D. Mrkich, Krajina, October 10, 1997

- about house where Nikola Tesla was born (in Smiljan village, in Lika, from where also originates family from my father`s side, one of key locations of Crow clan)...



only Czech government responded positively, on Serbian call for urgent help in preservation of Serbian heritage in today`s Croatia...

Bomb UCK in Kossovo.

or just, not to bomb Serbs


Southern, I noticed that Poles here and probably in general think that Serbs oppressed Muslims and Catholics. Poles simply don`t understand and don`t know that in fact Serbs were oppressed and that Muslims and Catholic Croats were manipulated by German/NATO interests.

Poles should know that here in the region we deal with aggressive Islam, which violently spread with support of some world powers. It`s not Serbs who didn`t accept rights of others. Serbian rights were/are brutally endangered.

Southern. Are you capable to explain situation? I am maybe too emotional

It is true,Poles and Czechs have in part been victims of western media propaganda.They ignore the real situation in Balcans and it is difficult for them to understand because they never had muslims living between them.If they had,I am sure they would support serbian rights full hearted.
Did you notice that Americans under Republican government tend to change their view of events in Balcans completely and now they blame Democrats for a dirty war?There has to be some truth in all these claims.Something is happening in US foreign policy and we are not completely aware of it.Maybe they have found the solid connection of terrorists all over Kossovo,Bosnia with arab countries,Pakistan etc and regard them as a whole.

Have you tried writing to the USA goverment? or

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/index.php

Many voices in the USA are heard and make a differance. You could even write to the White House and make yourself and how you feel known. It may sound like a waste of time but when the media gives reports it is what makes the news. Why not give the US your take on the issues. It must be frustrating and the more people you can get to write the stronger the voice becomes. Today with so much going on in the world we tend to think we are powerless. Many in the US search for the truth and can't find it.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

That just doesn't wash!

In Kosovo the Serbs are a tiny minority...this tiny minority wants to stay with Serbia of course but this clashes with the wishes of the huge Majority, muslim Albanians who wants independence.

Sorry but it's hard to see the points of the Serbs here and if you sprout so much about democracy then you should let decide the people who are concerned with that what they want...the majority get's to decide...that's democracy and that's what happened. Democracy was at work here!

I can't see the west going to support the Serbs in this case, sorry.
You can blame western conspiracies and the big, bad Germans as much as you want but the rest of the world lives in the reality!
(And I'm no fan of muslims!)

And Crow, you are the board bigot (beside Puzzler of course).

Remember your crusade for the few lusatian sorbs living in Brandenburg?
They are even fewer than the Serb minority in Kosovo but how huge wordes you spittet about FIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE, FREEDOM FROM THE GERMAN OPRESSION AND SLAVERY, even a secession from Germany and the building of a slav Sorb state was not beneath you....

The same what you now deny the Kosovanians...sorry guy...just doesn't wash!

- Why would Puzzler be 'the board bigot'?

And who is the one calling Puzzler a bigot?!
:)

as it should be..and that is the point

I see alot about apologies and accountability from people that no longer exist. Nations didn't commit the crimes, people did.
People have the ability to build as well as destroy. The people of both countries want to build strong economies, infrastructure, and partnerships...not monuments to the wrongs of the past. They need encouragement to move forward, not reasons to live in the past

quoting z_Darius "I think right now it's a good time for the two countries to get close as friends, not enemies. Enough is enough."

It also means the off spring of the offender being big enough to say, "they were wrong" and "we are sorry it took place". Trust that pain will not go away, but taking a stance and saying outloud "it was wrong" serves a bigger purpose than any amount of fighting. Respect the intellagence of humans memory and healing begins when truth is told and true sorrow is shown. I see the same victim's from 1932-33 that Ukraine says should be remembered, forgotten 1939-45. Can we say one action happened while the other we should just forget?

I think its the bible that says something about the sins of the father not being passed to the son.........

Bravo, I really can't agree more whole heartedly with you on this point.

Magic690 is right, internationally, the 2 countries are hardly at each other's throats. Let sleeping dogs lie ( I hope that was the right idiom, hehehe) and bury the hatchet. The Ukraine could act as an effective counterbalance to growing Russian force. Dragging up old dirt will, funnily enough, just lead to a dirtier picture so, pure and simple, avoid it and try to forge new ties. Ukrainians are amiable enough

quote=celinski] I see the same victim's from 1932-33 that Ukraine says should be remembered, forgotten 1939-45. Can we say one action happened while the other we should just forget? [/quote]
If what you say is true, why is this an OK issue that Ukraine shows strong feelings about? After all it is the past.



Something of this magnitude does not go away. It cannot be avoided like a small incedent gone unchecked. I do not want to start, I seek closure, truth, peace.

Have you ever lent money to a friend and they forget to repay the loan? For some reason, it is remembered whenever you think of this person. It does not matter how long the friendship has been or how close you were. There is no longer a trust. This is the same type of thing. Yet, have that same person come to you and say,"I'm sorry, I forgot" and like magic a renewed trust and your old friend is back. By ignoring the incedent a mistrust remains. This is not a way to achive a close relationship. Ask yourself, can a trusting relationship survive when built on a lie?

My family was not in Ukraine during the worst of it. In fact they were "sent to die" by Stalin in Siberia. I do not push this issue to hurt Ukraine or Poland, but to strengthen the bond. Sometimes it has to be uncomfortable before a true, close relationship can be had. I have Ukraine and Poland in my blood line. Maybe this is why I want the closest of ties. In the end the two can have a true foundation with both countries winning in the end.

Even celebration in Ukraine 1932-33 Holodomor (soviet regime made Great Famine) is quite different from war time mess 1939-45 - both shouldn't be forgotten. Ukraine do not blame any nation for that, you wont find any reference to some nationality or country. Ukrainians blame regimes (only) which lead to the disasters.

I am sorry if you feel the rest of the world does not know who was responsable. Not just a known fact but a crimanal act to deny.



http://en.for-ua.com/news/2007/11/26/134401.html

Mr. President, according to the Law on the Holodomor, any attempts to deny it are prohibited and regarded as acts of contempt to the millions of victims. How can our politicians be made to observe this law? Will you insist that the new coalition amend the Criminal Code to institute criminal liability for Holodomor denial?
http://en.for-ua.com/analytics/2007/11/19/130557.html

Where ? In America ?

I gave an example. I was brought up with sayings like, "A man is only as good as his word". Taking responsability for actions, do not steal.... In order to have an honest open relationship, you need truth, trust, respect how many relationships do you know that work without this. Sure you can have a relationship without trust but is this a good relationship that can build. Heck no, it's a waist of time.

But what relationship are you talking about ?

The relationship between Ukraine and Poland needs to be built strong to withstand being broken apart by outside countries that may not want this bond.

There is more and more Ukrainians in Poland especjaly young. We don't talk about WWII :) I have been to Lwow and people were very friendly I had good time there =) and Ukrainian girls are OK :P ;)

It's good enough...

This is because for so many years you could not speak. It does not mean it is not there. Now that Poland is free to speak they are speaking. Whenever I read of the ones speaking out, others try to speak over them and throw what has happened to them as the major issue. Example, When Poland went to Ukraine and spoke of abuse (war crimes towards Poles) the subject got turned into, 1932-33 crimes towards all.



This is an easy way to deal with it. I feel why settle for OK if a new start with strong ties can be formed.

Celinski, my parents and grandparents discuss about it. I know facts and young Ukrainians know about past.