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My (short) Polish expereinces - bad luck?

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Edited by: Teffle Aug 31, 10, 17:24 #121

zetigrek:

Teffle really wasn't looking for answer does he had "a bad luck". He just want to confirm his prejudice... Teffle, am I right?

No, you are not. I wanted to know if my experiences were accurate, half accurate or completely unusual, i.e. bad luck.

From the mixture of responses it seems, on balance, that they weren't completely unusual anyway that's for sure.

btw. Teffle I've send you a message, it would be polite to reply or just send a pm that you won't reply.

For the record, I didn't notice I had a PM - I'm used to receiving pop-ups.

You reckon it's polite to remind me how to behave politely then? and to proceed to reproduce part of the "private" message ?!

I dunno...

Its normal that British and Irish ppl say to Poles: "go back to Poland if you don't like the way of living here" and they see nothing wrong with that.

Well it's rude, but logical. I would never say it but I can see the reasoning.
It's not the same thing though - for a start I don't live in Poland.

BTW, you said that there "is no macismo in Poland"

In black and white.

Do you still stand by this statement?

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Edited by: zetigrek Aug 31, 10, 17:50 #122

Teffle:

and to proceed to reproduce part of the "private" message ?!

I've reproduced my message not yours! I have right to post my words wherever I want.

Teffle:

From the mixture of responses it seems, on balance, that they weren't completely unusual anyway that's for sure.

Read the post #28 again, ok? I've already acknoledged that you have right in most points but not in all of them (and it was in my first post in this thread).

Teffle:

It's not the same thing though - for a start I don't live in Poland.

I just told you to take back your psedofeminstic attitude back to Ireland (but ok, I'm sorry I might misunderstood you. For me "chivalry" is to let women walk first through the doors and all those nice little gestures which make ppl smile... and certainly nothing oldfashioned).

Teffle:

BTW, you said that there "is no macismo in Poland"

I said that machismo is not a part of polish culture. I can't asure you that every lout respects women but you can encounter such louts everywhere in the world. Generally Polish men respect women even though they mentain "old-fashined" (for you) suvoir vivre (which their mothers tought them). Poland is not Latin America.

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Aug 31, 10, 18:07 #123

bollox. there is no machismo in polish culture

...is what you said Zetigrek.

This whole manners/chivalry thing has got out of hand totally. I mentioned old fashioned manners/chivalry - not a problem with that - that "spilled over into... there's where the problem started for me.

And yes, old fashioned definitely by most standards e.g. kissing women's hands? Again, not a problem with it though.

I have re-read your post#28. Fair enough, you have been more open/receptive than I may have assumed a few posts back.

I'll probably leave this because it's all been said and there is too much misinterpretation and defensiveness I think.

Again, apologies if I have offended anyone as it was not my intention. I was just trying to be as honest as possible.

dtaylor5632Threads: 48 Posts: 4,346 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 18:18 #124
Teffle: Teffle There's nothing wrong with what you wrote, as you said it's just an opinion. I'm sure there were lots of thing you also enjoyed over in Poland. There is a macho element in Poland though, that I do believe after so many years of living there.

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Edited by: zetigrek Aug 31, 10, 18:22 #125

Teffle:

...is what you said Zetigrek.

...in polish culture :)
It would be risky to say that 100% of Poles are the exemplary gentelmen. You have to understand that society is full of individual cases. But generally Poles aren't macho in my eyes. I find macho style bit funny.

Teffle:

And yes, old fashioned definitely by most standards e.g. kissing women's hands? Again, not a problem with it though.

This one is actually old fashioned even in Poland. Mind that young ppl rather don't kiss women in hand. But still it's nothing wrong.

Teffle:

Again, apologies if I have offended anyone as it was not my intention. I was just trying to be as honest as possible.

I apologize you too.

dtaylor5632:

There is a macho element in Poland though, that I do believe after so many years of living there.

Well comparing with Russians or Ukrainians our "machoman" seems to be fading. I've just post an article about Ukrainian women who work in Poland and they praise polish men to be real gentelmen who respect women, as an opposite of Ukrainians who are too much dominating over women (as I understood from the context)... (to all Russians and Ukrainians - it's not my own opinion! I found Russians really nice ppl and I don't know any Ukrainian in person)

tow_stalinThreads: 2 Posts: 72 Joined: Jul 21, 10 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 08:17 #126
zetigrek: Its normal that British and Irish ppl say to Poles: "go back to Poland if you don't like the way of living here" and they see nothing wrong with that. So I see nothing wrong with saying to you what I have said. Double standars? Yes it seems you have double standards... o nooo. he is calling this "tolerance" :)

FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12 Posts: 1,821 Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS Sep 1, 10, 09:20 #127
Zetigrek wrote: But generally Poles aren't macho in my eyes. I find macho style bit funny. as do I. it always cracks me up to see 2 big polish guys, track suits and pumas on, walking side by side through the market square holding ice cream cones. i have 2 friends flying in today from America and I know once they see that, they're going to laugh their pants off.

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Sep 1, 10, 09:27 #128

Zetigrek,

Having read this interesting exchange, in which emotions might have flared a little high sometimes (probably due to the limitations and the one-dimensional character of communicating on the internet), I'd like to ask you a question.

You say that, in general, there is no macho-culture in Poland. In the past couple of months (I can't exactly remember when), there's been a survey in Poland in which it was said that a big percentage of Polish men think that household chores are a woman's task, that they don't cook a meal at home and that they generally don't get involved in the day-to-day care of the children. When I am in PL (which as you know is just about every weekend), I quite often see groups of men sitting in front of some local shop "having a drink" (or should I say getting loaded). Wouldn't you agree that this is also a part of macho-culture?

No need to get worked up, it's just a question out of interest.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,899 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 09:35 #129
FUZZYWICKETS: 2 big polish guys, track suits and pumas on Adidas.

AussieSheilaThreads: 6 Posts: 112 Joined: Aug 14, 10 ♀	Sep 1, 10, 09:36 #130
This threat proved my experience and observations were in deed substantiated.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,899 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 09:40 #131
This is macho culture. http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1420981.php /In_macho_Serbia_it_s_OK_to_slap_the_wife_Feature

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Edited by: convex Sep 1, 10, 09:40 #132

AussieSheila:

This threat proved my experience and observations were in deed substantiated.

Yup, it's all true and those of us who live here and don't agree 100% are just too stupid to see it.

southern:

This is macho culture.

Hilarious

'Where can I go? Whom can I turn to? Nobody will believe me. He's a well-respected dentist and I'm his sweet, good-looking wife,' she said.

'So I stay with him. Thank God I can't have children, so he can't hurt them,' she said. 'But he hits me because I can't give him sons.'

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 10:51 #133
tow_stalin: o nooo. he is calling this "tolerance" :) Er...No ???!!! Are you actually a real poster tow_stalin or just some piece of code written to generate non sequiturs throughout the site?

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Edited by: SeanBM Sep 1, 10, 11:31 #134

Hello Teffle,

Where abouts in Ireland are you from?

I think a lot of what you perceived as rude is just cultural differences.

People here look strangers in the eye, something which is perceived as threatening in Ireland.

People were quite in crowds, you expected a certain ambient noise level in a galleria, (I was afraid the first time I came to Poland because people were so quite I thought there was a bomb somewhere) loudness is considered rude in Poland.

And service is shite but again I put this down to culture shock on your behalf, as the history of customer service is a short one here.

Teffle:

I mentioned a vague sexism - old fashioned manners/chivalry that spilled over into patronisation and machismo some of the time.E.g. my wife being repeatedly ignored when the glasses were being filled around the table - general deference to the male (i.e. me) for decision making and expecting me to answer for my wife.
Noticed quite a few older males kind of "rationing" their wives alcohol intake - often the women didn't get their own drink and were kind of given a little from time to time from their men.

This makes me think of the reaction some people have got when they visit Dublin's fair.
Binge drinking girls, totally locked drunk, with their skirts up around their ears, screaming and cackling so loud you can't hear yourself think.

It is pretty much polar opposite to what you have experienced here in Poland.
Again there is a cultural difference, Ireland went through a sexual revolution, when men were men and women couldn't vote, weren't even allowed in the same section of the pub as men, they were in another room with the babies and had little or no rights or say on matters.
Irish women now are in many ways equal to men (except in pay for the same job).

Poland during communism had women and men working side by side, women were considered a part of the workforce and the children where sent to nurseries while they went to work in the factories. There difference because of your sex was nothing like Ireland and so never went through a sexual revolution. In fact I find a large amount of Polish women want to get a good education and a return to pre-communist family values.

Where I find in Ireland now, that children are a hindrance to the 'sex in the city' self made women.
Neither way is better, I am just trying to describe the way I see it and I think the way you perceived it was down t culture shock.

Teffle:

I can't take someone who tells me to "take my sick beliefs back to Ireland"

I didn't understand this comment of yours, what beliefs?

And maybe I missed the Homophobia part but what makes you think there is any more Homophobia here than in Ireland. When I used to live in Sligo, gay bashing was common enough and almost lead to deaths on several occasions.

Despite what you may think you have done on this thread, you have bashed Poland.
That is not to say that your experience is untruthful and as you seem like an intelligent enough guy, you'll know that absolutely anything can look crap when viewed from a certain perspective.
I blame your mates for not showing you the best Poland has to offer.
I am from Dublin and I live in Poland, I really love living here.

I read that you said that you can find bad things about Ireland, fair play but Ireland is a great country and although someone might go there twice for short stays and think it is crap, without time to adjust or digest what is happening is also a valid.
Point and you have come on here bashing Poland and I actually believe that was unintentional by the way you write but might explain the emotional reaction you have provoked.

Who knows maybe you'll come back some day and see it with new eyes and love it as much as I do, anything is possible :)

I don't mean to explain away all your bad experiences, because Poland is not perfect but I do hope to shed some light on aspects it seems you had not picked up on, understandably because of your short trips.

AussieSheila:

This threat proved my experience and observations were in deed substantiated.

Now here is a person with a chip on her shoulder.
What is it that makes you post a load of rubbish on these forums? Are you jealous of Poland?
Anyway I am too busy working to save up for my luxurious McDonalds to discuss this any further with you, for now...

♂

Sep 1, 10, 11:58 #135

SeanBM:

I didn't understand this comment of yours, what beliefs?

Beats me. Zetigrek said it originally. A reference to the assumption that I thought that good manners was a bad thing. A misunderstanding really.

Thanks for taking the time to post Sean - some of it makes sense. Culture shock cannot be underestimated, but there are certain attitudes, behavioural aspects that are just rude or offensive in almost any culture or language.

I am indifferent to Ireland - it is my nationality and I live here, that's all. I don't have any romantic view of the place nor do I feel a need to defend or praise the country. I recognise that there are plenty of things wrong here as there are in most countries.

Considering the Polish friends I have I cannot really totally rule out going back to Poland and if so, maybe I will have a better experience next time.

(I'm from rural Cavan by the way)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 12:13 #136
First of all, machismo needs to be defined. I was gonna say that quite a while back in this thread but nobody said it thereafter. Without this, too much second guessing will be going on.

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Sep 1, 10, 12:17 #137

Teffle:

Culture shock cannot be underestimated, but there are certain attitudes, behavioural aspects that are just rude or offensive in almost any culture or language.

I really blame your mates for not showing you what Poland can be.

I wrote some topics on my recommendations, have a look if you get the chance :
Recommendations for Krakow and Myślenice and Recommendations for Zakopane

Teffle:

I am indifferent to Ireland

Yeah but people are always bashing Poland on here, normally I don't bother replying but you seem like decent enough fella, so i thought I'd throw in my bit.
Many Polish people are defensive of Poland again because it is poor and so many people had to leave to find work elsewhere, which is a very recent possibility.
Many Polish people feel bad that so many Poles couldn't carve a life out for themselves here in Poland.
Very similar to the way Irish people were almost ignored when they left Ireland because it reflects poorly on the country.
There are many other reasons for Polish people feeling defensive and sure, sometimes it is just a blind form of nationalism but also for more complex reasons.

Teffle:

I recognise that there are plenty of things wrong here as there are in most countries.

The thing though, is that you have only really described Poland as a miserable, bleak, depressing place full of racist homophobic macho-men with out really saying anything else.

Teffle:

Considering the Polish friends I have I cannot really totally rule out going back to Poland and if so, maybe I will have a better experience next time.

Well make sure they bring you to the right places.
I strongly recommend the jazz scene here, architecture, nature and wildlife.
It all depends on what interests you but there is something for everyone, well at least for me :)

Teffle:

(I'm from rural Cavan by the way)

Good man!

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Edited by: zetigrek Sep 1, 10, 12:23 #138

FUZZYWICKETS:

t always cracks me up to see 2 big polish guys, track suits and pumas on,

we call them dresiarze (dres=tracksuit). It's almost a subculture ;)

Stu:

Having read this interesting exchange, in which emotions might have flared a little high sometimes (probably due to the limitations and the one-dimensional character of communicating on the internet),

We've already patched things up. I agree sometimes I too much involve in "discussions" ;)

Stu:

there's been a survey in Poland in which it was said that a big percentage of Polish men think that household chores are a woman's task, that they don't cook a meal at home and that they generally don't get involved in the day-to-day care of the children.

For me macho culture is something deeper than "traditional living task division". Macho is a kind of domination over women (sometimes agressive). Way of thinking that a woman is a man's possesion. I wouldn't say that men tend to dominate over women in Poland (but ok, it's my individual opinion, maybe I have good luck to see kind men around me). The household task is a different problem but I would say it really changed during the years. I can give you an example of my dad who do pretty great amount of houseworks (e.g. he cooks) and he is an older generation (he is almost 60)... My mom never was good in householding so my dad had to take the things in his own hands ;D Certainly if there was be a poll and my dad was to take a part in it, he would say that householding is women task... but his life happened to be for him that he makes most of householding on his own.

Maybe I have extraordinary experience derived from my home and that's why I don't consider men being machos. I have also an older brother who is also not a sexist type...
I have a good friend who often do babysitting with his nieses...

Stu:

When I am in PL (which as you know is just about every weekend), I quite often see groups of men sitting in front of some local shop "having a drink" (or should I say getting loaded)

Normal ppl call them żule or margines społeczny
I know that margines społeczny (an English equivalent please, anyone?) is a huge % in Poland but it's sad that Polish ppl are almost all consider as such by foreigners. Everyone who sits whole day in front of kiosk with alcohol is a alcoholic who leave on benefits (and on debts) not a normal and decent citizen.

Alcoholism is not a part of macho culture. Btw it's starnge that you don't see the female alcoholics among them which is not unusual thing either.

southern:

Adidas.

No I do believe your a Polish guy who just mock to be a Balkan (or something...)

convex:

Yup, it's all true and those of us who live here and don't agree 100% are just too stupid to see it.

I hope it was a sarcasm...

NorthMancPolakThreads: 6 Posts: 615 Joined: Jun 13, 10 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 12:42 #139
zetigrek: an English equivalent please, anyone? the underclass

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Edited by: Teffle Sep 1, 10, 12:53 #140

zetigrek:

I know that margines społeczny (an English equivalent please, anyone?)

Yeah, as Northmanc says underclass would be a common enough equivalent by the looks of it. Don't speak Polish really but marginalised would be a polite way of putting it and margines looks pretty close.

Underclass would be fairly derogatory but as you can imagine, there are plenty of much worse terms too!

I know that margines społeczny ... is a huge % in Poland but it's sad that Polish ppl are almost all consider as such by foreigners.

Don't worry, most countries have a similar problem. Britain and Ireland definitely. France is pretty bad for this too.

For what it's worth I didn't see much evidence of this when I was in Poland - so there you are: a positive! ; )

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,710 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 12:57 #141
zetigrek: No I do believe your a Polish guy who just mock to be a Balkan (or something...) it should be "Now I believe". How do you can distinguish between "dres" - its the only polish state of art to know which dres means what ;D Addidas and Reebok are the most "dresest" brands among dresiarze. Nike in almost behind. But Puma? Puma is quite nice label ;D

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 13:00 #142
On the margins of society or even on the fringes of society :)