U.S. Missile Base in Poland----Your thoughts?

Where were USA in the 60-ies, when, according to the members of this forum, half of todays EU was "occupied" by Ruskies? As long, as Bush is not a President, USA wouldnt start a new war, even if they lose one of their bases in Europe.

And why are you all so absessed with Russia invading you??? Little country syndome, I guess, thinking that everyone is spending their time, trying to make it bad for you.


Oh god, are you going to convert your Skodas to coal? Or are you going to make more sushi's for new litvinenkos? Dont be childish, coal is yesterday. And you won't built a nuclear station in less than a year.

if oil prices will cost more than 60$ per barrel for longer time it is good business to make oil form coal. (now oil costs about 100$ per barrel).

EU has plan to build 10 bilion Euro worth rafinery making oil form coal ... because of our deposits Poland is the best place to do it. Of course we are going to sell oil on market price and we are not going to use it to control other countries. If everything will go in good direction we will be able to suppply baltic states, Czech rep. and part of Germany (and of course Poland).

We just started to build nuclear power plant with baltic states so they will be independent form Russian power supplies, we put Uranium and part of funds to build it.
We just signed agreement with Lithuanians to connect them to our energetic system ...

We will see ... what will happen

This is what I meant by the Russians turning off the Gas. Too much of a focus on missiles and shields etc The real battle is economic and the supply of hydrocarbons.

Gazprom vs Poland
URL
Remember what they did to Ukraine in 2006 when it voted the wrong way.
URL
( Link contains a map of Europes pipelines, worth looking at ).
The future ? ( pdf file on natural diversification )
URL
Russian/German pact ? Page 8. Your supply is only as safe as the country it comes through so they want to bypass Poland, fwiw, I don't think its important but I know it will get a few Pl excited :-)

As long as the price holds up this is viable and will provide good employment, I dont think the production levels would ever bring Poland to the table of oil exporters but it would be good for the Polish economy - might even get some Coal Based Methane too.

Much easier to lay a pipe from Norway under the sea to Poland, I would of course prefer you bought it from an independant Scotland :-))

Thanks for the links szkotja 2007, I didn't know about this issue

high fives szkotja2007 for progressive thinking.
Besides that, will Europeans really be prepared for the E.U. commision's recommendations regarding energy suppliers and transmitters in the next 10-20 years? The potential for private monopoly on power looks like it could become a greater danger in the upcoming years. But that's not sensationalist so no one gives a ****.

Paszka,

First neither US or Poland would ever start a war with Russia.... However it would use any means necessary to defend itself... Why complain of a defencive weapon that can only be used against an attacker? Answer this question... don't disregard it like you have done many times...

99% sure Russia doesn't wants to attack Poland at least militarly(but wants to control it through oil).. Even if we were best friends with every country in the world, I would still support this shield.

Its better to be safe then sorry.... A friend today can be an enemy tommorrow...

Hey Matty, please revive the terrorist thread. I wanna 'discuss' sth with u as an American, not argue

Sure...Give me a sec Seanus...

Paszka....hate repeating myself but you obviously missed the post, if you still are talking about this..

Here are just a few of the Benefits of the shield:
1. Upgraded air defences
2. Moderization of the military
3. Closer relationship with the only Superpower
4. Transfer of Intellectual knowledge & technology ( I think anybody logical knows how important this really is)
5. The missle shield itself which has the ability to shoot down missles.
6. Direct economic benefits to the region and Indirect economic benefits to all of Poland.
7. Greater Nato capabilities that would lead to increased politcal power in the organization.
8. Indirectly it will lead to greater politcal power in EU.
9. To a small extent Both US and EU will compete for Polands loyalty.
10. Closer relationship with Czech Republic
11. Weakens Russia(very important) since Poland and Russia are in direct competition for influence in Eastern Europe.
12. Contrary to popular belief having US base makes your country safer, at least when it comes to attack from other countries....
13.:loser relations with baltic states who support the shield..

I can go on forever but that should be enough at least for now..............

Here are the few of the so called disadvantages (very weak arguments by the way):
1. Ruins relationship with Russia. Last time I checked the relationship wasnt that good anyways. Not to mention Russia is all bark no bite. Russia will never attack US... at least I don't think that they have a death wish...
2. Make us target for terrorists.... we already are, the terrorists will attack anybody... fu*k em. Plus Poland has a tiny muslim population(most have been intergrated within society for centuries).. its easy to keep an eye if any new potential terrorists arrive for an attack.... potential for homegrown terrorists is virtually nonexistent.
3. Make us target for Russia... in case of war its clear we would be on the side against Russia...so either way we would be a target.. shield or not... Anways Russia must go through Poland to attack the west and its clear we would be invaded, if the war is with Poland or not.

Pascka hope this helps...

That's a VEEEEEEEEERY long second Matty

lol sorry Seanus, as you can see I was a little preoccupied... K ill go back and read those links.. and let you know...

Just don't ask for a minute next time, hehehe

You got it, I didn't realize it was going to take that much longer...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/03/content_7703293.htm

The Czechs should worry about there own negotiations... Im guessing the US cried to them about it....

Poland has a right to set any conditions we want... Either accept them or not... Its your choice...

Not to mention the conditions are more than reasonable...

I m all of the shield, buts its going to be on Poland's terms...

You are still not sure whether you are getting them.

Right... What did CIA said in their report back in 2006? Russia remains the only superpower which can destroy any other country on the globe in the matter of 40 minutes. And China is definately a third superpower.


It really doesnt work out. First of all, people of PL and CZ doesnt like the shiled. Second of all, even if you will get extra help from UK, RU will press on fuel supplies, so basically it isnt of a advantage or disadvantage (economically).


I always thought, there are only two countries that try to dominate the Europe... Usa and Ru, no? Since when is Poland an important globe player? Its not, and it never has been in the last 100 or so years.


I read on the news, that there is only one place in Lithuania where people officially are allowed to speak and communicate in Russian, and that is the nuclear power station :) Nothing to add to the topic, just a fact worth to know.

Paszka,

None of your counter arguments are valid.... first you only debated 4 points meaning at least the other 8 are valid...

Also the 4 you did argue, I disagree with your assumptions..

1 & 2.. We will get air defences and modernization of military, if not then no shield... Those are non negotiatble conditions.

Also your argument that Russia can destroy any country in 40 mins... Your right that's why we need a relationship with America...

As to economic benefits, lets call that a draw but either way Russia will supply us oil... they can't cut us off without cutting off EU... at least for now....

As to point 11, that only two countries try to dominate Europe.... Just one lately, Russia.....
poland might not have been a global player for the past 100 years, but this is what we're trying to change..

On a positive note, its really cool that you actually debated this instead of ignoring the points I made as so many others have done... kudos to you....

US has this power also, although it is true, Russia DOES have more nuclear weapons than the United States according to most estimates. This was the same as during the cold war. The *difference* is, the U.S. has the ability to shoot down Russia's missiles. Russia *so far* does not have this same capability. It is why the cold war arms race became a moot point. Either nation has enough nuclear weapons to turn the other (and most if not all of the planet) into a sheet of molten glass. That does not mean it will happen.
Strange, also, that everyone seems to trust CIA, but only when it supports their beliefs...look how many people pointed wildly at the NIE (a bunch of bought and paid for political scoundrels btw, whose only purpose was to weaken the administration to the benefit of the opposing party) when it said Iran had not had a nuclear weapons program for several years? Turns out it was a lie, and now the UN itself is trying to get something done to slow Tehran's progress toward having nuclear weapons. The same ones that "NIE" said they'd not been working on for years....
And some people wonder why anyone would have trust issues with Russia. Threaten to cut off someone's livelihood and food if they disagree...
Perhaps some do not like the idea of a shield, but I would bet a case of your favorite that the "shield" they opposed has nothing to do with the one being offered. It is unbelievable how many people even on this forum believe there is an offensive missile base actually being offered (it's not) and Russia is doing nothing to stop this misinformation, perhaps they are even helping it. Reality is, I'll bet most who know the true nature of this thing want it. Of course, as with anything, there will be opinions on both sides of this, but IMHO when neighbors (Russia for instance) are building sporty new ICBM's and TESTING them (of course they claim it is in "response" to offers of shields etc....but then I ask why is it already to the TEST phase...?) and Iran down south with its newer missiles suddenly able to reach much of Europe and working feverishly towards nuclear capability-even claims to DESIRE the destruction of other nations...when offered the ability to swat said missiles out of the sky like gnats by a nation which is friendly-my instincts would be to ask for "Two, please..."

No big surprise here; Americans have been hands-tied politically for years wrt new nuclear power facilities here in the states, and the engineers would probably want to be paid. Russia is closer, simpler just to hire a few of their engineers-less of a language barrier, and the materials and expertise are closer.
Something I've been pointing out also. In my opinion Iraq, Iran, Russia-is all a shell game and the real issue is how much control is Putin going to have thanks to his oil. I agree with you.
Also interesting, that no matter what happens in Russia, Putin ALWAYS seems to manage to stay in power somehow......

Night Everyone.
John P.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/07/content_7734608.htm

All American Presidential Contenders support the missle shield. Good to hear, means at least from the American side that the project is going ahead no matter who wins.

Obama quoted:

“The Bush Administration has been developing plans to deploy interceptors and radar systems in Poland and the Czech Republic as part of a missile defense system designed to protect against the potential threat of Iranian nuclear armed missiles. If we can responsibly deploy missile defenses that would protect us and our allies we should – but only when the system works. We need to make sure any missile defense system would be effective before deployment. The Bush Administration has in the past exaggerated missile defense capabilities and rushed deployments for political purposes. The Bush Administration has also done a poor job of consulting its NATO allies about the deployment of a missile defense system that has major implications for all of them. We must not allow this issue to divide “new Europe” and “old Europe,” as the Bush Administration tried to do over Iraq.”

What's that quote supposed to show?, to me it just shows that Obama is not against the shield but against the way the situation was handled.

His opinion what else?

That Obama is resonable candiate for President.

I agree.... I like Obama.............

Obama said, We must not allow this issue to divide “new Europe” and “old Europe,” as the Bush Administration tried to do over Iraq.”

I do like Obama, however that statement is just wrong, it wasn't Bush's intention to divide Europe..... it would not be in the interests of the US to do so, especially if we wanted to win the war (the more support we have the better). It just happened that the countries didn't agree.

That statement is political talk because its so cool nowadays(so stupid btw) to attack Bush.

Getting protection from the US is at best illusory. USA is a business enterprise pretending to be a country. It rare, but not unique in the world history, Carthage was one. It’s ethos is "America's business is business".
It is not a matter of becoming a target because of these installations, but rather projecting Poland as an unfriendly neighbor. Recent example of the worth of the US protection agreements is the one with Taiwan. It was good while mainland China was a backwater place, but once it became a country where one can make more money than in Taiwan, the friendship and treaties were quickly forgotten. After all “countries do not have honor, they have interests”.
It may feel good to be able to rub an old adversary’s nose in a s**t, but like with all such actions pleasure is short lived and doubtful, but negative consequences are long term and real.
It should be a Poland’s role to integrate Russia with the EEC rather than putting barricades. It will be a commercial benefit to Poland, possible way of countering Germany’s economic domination. Technologically Poland has little to offer to the west, its present role is being a pool of inexpensive labor (emigration and screwdriver assembly). It could be a different with Russia its enormous resources and labor shortages (exacerbated as time passes).
Attaching Poland to the west has undeniable benefits, but our Slavic character and culture is very different from that of the Germans. These traits form over centuries and it takes generations to be able to understand each other.
Soviet regime was not less ruthless toward Russians as it was for Poles. Communism did harm Russians more than it harmed Poles. It just happened that it was headquartered in Russia. It was brought from the west and artificially planted in the crumbling society by the German Secret Service. It was an international movement which was quickly hijacked by ruthless opportunists. Results we know all too well. Imperial Russia was in its nature pan-slavic. The clash of Polish and Russian superpower ambitions caused conflicts and wars. On the Polish side it was a matter of survival as a nation, not so dramatic for Russia. The crucial point is that Poles who accepted russification were fully admitted into the Russian nation and society. Of course that will mean end of Poland as a nation.
There is a big difference west of Poland. German nazism was as name suggests a national movement. There was no place in it for Slavs. With Germans it’s nothing new (over a thousand years now). I am not convinced it can be changed in less than several generations.

that's called capitalism....... please look up the definition of a country in a dictionary, you might realize how stupid you sound.



Actually US is still selling weapons to Taiwan. Is there some war going on that Im not aware of. How do you know what the US will do if China attacks. China is more powerful now so we need to be a little more cautious. Doesn't mean US doesnt support Taiwan.



You mean Russian domination.... Poland is doing a good job gaining influence in EU even with Germany being in charge. Poland has never been this rich. So obviously the relationship is benefitical to both Germany and Poland.



lol, I gonna give you a chance to retract this before I comment....



Please move to Russia, you seem to love it more than Poland.....

Read post 2888 and dispute that..........

I see we are back to threats in Russia.

Russia warns Poland, Czech over US plan
Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:47:23

Russian nuclear missiles will be targeted at Poland and the Czech Republic, if they allow the deployment of a US anti-missile system.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=46521&sectionid=351020602

Again, I reiterate that this is posturing. They will do no such thing!!

I agree, that its posturing, they might target the installation(though unlikely) but they wouldn't dare attack...

However I also agree with Carol, I'm getting sick of this all bark no bite talk... You can only listen to so much barking before you begin to bark back......... This could have a domino effect...

Let's hope not!! When u reveal ur hand, u often follow through on it but it's maybe time for Russia to tuck their tails between their legs and accept that they are on a loser here. I live in Poland and I can tell u sincerely that I don't fear Russian reprisals. Politics, now more than ever, has become a game

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-03-08-voa16.cfm

It seems Germany has changed it's stance and defended the missile shield when Merkal visited Russia. I applaud Ms. Merkal for her stance...

me too..

sounds like Russia is finding reasons.. but of course you seen that one of their guys
is supplying the terrorists with arms.. so why wouldnt they be difficult..