U.S. Missile Base in Poland----Your thoughts?

I think Germany is getting tired of Russia playing God.

"Russia briefly stopped natural gas supplies to Ukraine on Wednesday, which in turn interrupted delivery to other European markets. Germany gets most of its natural gas supplies from Russia."

Russia con't. to use "gas" as a weapon. Maybe it's time Germany., Poland and Ukraine tapped into the oil in Ukraine that has been left to sit. A joint venture that would afford freedom from this weapon.

Nice thought Celinski, one to ponder over

Here she sits, "black gold".



http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-Nationalism&mo nth=0801&week=c&msg=uC0Hqd8BQxHvgb0%2bF0d%2b4A&user=&pw=

BBC about base :

07.03.08

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7280000/newsid_7282700/7282705 .stm?bw=nb&mp=wm&news=1&nol_storyid=7282705&bbcws=1

The very fact that Putin is engaging in dialogue minimises the chances of him being recalcitrant. His relations with George W Bush have been soured somewhat but still are not fully sour. There is no need to be too hasty with this shield. America can prevent Iran from building WMD's. Other countries are not in a mad rush to build them.

Other country's were not taken over by Soviet's. I feel getting them in place is rather important. Pres. Putin seemed to step back until the election was over. IMO, the longer he has to insult, threaten and order Poland around, the harder it will be for Poland's independence stance.

Poland is moving forward with the idea so bullying is not working. I can understand Polish quite naturally, depending on the topic of course, and I think that there isn't undue consternation in the Polish press. Poland is just flicking Russia away, offering sweeteners to placate them

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i9w2Iv769zXwpuBaaJQu_6bk05IwD8VANGV 04

Eat that sh*t Czech Republic....... Next time keep your mouth shut and don't complain....

Now maybe Pres. Putin will stop digging deeper holes.

"Polish officials have said they are looking for help to acquire air defenses against short- to medium-range missiles. Negotiators have asked for Patriot 3 or THAAD missiles and have identified 17 areas of the Polish military that the United States could help modernize. Interceptors for the planned U.S. shield are for protection against long-range missiles."

I had just read about Tusk-Bush military agreement. let consider consequences:
1. Would it prevent Russia from attacking?
2. Does Poland need strong military?
3. Other reasons and no obvious consequences.
ad. 1. The present treaty makes some sense as it will puts US soldiers in the line of fire in the case of conflict assuring US intervention in the case of Russia attacking Poland. Unless Russia and the US will sign a secret agreement, than US personnel manning military equipment in Poland may provide a foothold for the adversary (unlikely scenario). What would be the reason for Russia to attack Poland, not for land or natural resources, not to enslave population. I do not think anyone of a right mind would want to rule in Poland. Would Russia want attack US (unlikely) than these installations will be an obvious first target and consequently there will be Polish casualty and US/Polish-Russian war. Than it will be a 3rd World War and the whole world will be a battleground. Would it prevent Germans from attacking us, possibly as Polish military will be, accordingly to the agreement, better equipped.
ad 2. I do not think Poland would be a target for any aggression. It is a "golden period" in our history when there are no rational enemies, and no ideological either. There is no need for any military force in Poland. Border guards will suffice. The strong military is not going to prevent Russia from cutting gas or oil supply. If Poland will cut pipelines, railroads between Russia and Europe it may be a conflict, but it would be caused by Poland. Would Russia try to ship goods through Poland and not to pay for transit (unlikely).
ad 3. This is where problems start. Building strong military increases economical and political power of that force. The more power they have, as any institution they will want to expand, consequently using more and more of national resources. At first that will be in good measure paid by Americans, but eventually it will become an economical burden. The danger of having powerful military is that the peace time is their vacation and they will be preparing for and planning all kind of military actions. There could be a time when for some political reason it will be convenient for someone in power to use this military force (diverting attention, internal politics).
What kind of jurisdiction will US personnel fell under, would they need visas, would they be allow off bases? (I observed in Germany they were not very popular with a natives)
Would US military installations be treated as exterritorial?
Would supplies and equipment be subject to the Polish control?
How to prevent them to be an aggressive force? (attack on Russia)
Would this treaty allow them to stay forever? (Guantanamo comes to mind)
Saying nothing about cultural differences. (did anyone seen Americans eating at a restaurant?)

I have read that Poland and the US have reached an agreement about the missile shield system. I was hoping for Poland to negotiate a Visa Waver Program with that, and I am sure that they could have easily done it. I can't understand why they opted out on not asking for it, since it would have been a sure bet.
What they are getting in return is just an upgrade to Polish Defense Forces. Faire enough.URL

Any Country that wants to remain independent must have a defence. 1989 was not that long ago. Without military protection in Poland they remain a sitting duck. Poland cannot be passive in remaining a free country.

Why would Russia attack, thats simple, ownership. Why did Hitler and Stalin attack? If you don't feel the need, you must ask why is Pres. Putin so opposed?

Take a look at Ukraine today, they backed out of NATO after Pres. Putin threatened then, did it help them? No, he shut off there gas supply. It's all power over the country.

Weigh the risk of having the military in place and not needing them vs needing them and not having them. With the threats from Russia today, what chance do you think Poland would have in getting this in place without the USA let alone being able to afford them?

They didn't because the EU has the ultimate say over visa policy and so they left it up to the EU to deal with it... They don't believe these issues should be bilateral agreements... It was a matter of principle.... If Poland wants solidarity from the EU to deal with Russia they can't just side step the EU whenever it suits them... It was a smart political move... Plus the EU said it might sue the Czech Republic for making this bilateral agreement...

Heres an example.... Poland complains that Russia makes bilateral agreements in Energy with EU states.... How can it allow the US to make bilateral agreements in visas... It would be hypocritical.... Now if you say the shield is a bilateral agreement... Technically in EU law the countries are in charge of their own defense and not the EU.... There is no EU common defense policy.....



agreed

yes! we border a rough state anyway

A better question would be 'would the new system and an upgraded air defense system (in one package) deter Russia from attacking, threatening, or using military might to try and intimidate Poland in non-military areas such as trade?'

I think most would say yes.

Against the people

The Cold War is over, but the relationship between the USA and Russia is again becoming rather chilly. And while the Arctic ice recedes, technology is improving. In the latest issue of Foreign Affairs, the house magazine of the USA's policy and security elite, Scott G. Borgerson argues as follows:

Thanks to global warming, the Arctic icecap is rapidly melting, opening up access to massive natural resources and creating shipping shortcuts that could save billions of dollars a year. But there are currently no clear rules governing this economically and strategically vital region. Unless Washington leads the way toward a multilateral diplomatic solution, the Arctic could descend into armed conflict.

At times, when it serves its interests, Washington favours multilateral solutions. At other times, it deploys its military superiority to engage in armed conflict. Perhaps, in the end, a use will be found for those radars and missiles. If that happens, do not expect that the confrontation will be posed in terms of the USA's need to control vital economic and strategic resources. It is more likely that we will be told that this is a war to defend or extend democracy.


http://21stcenturysocialism.com/article/against_the_people_01620.html

Copy of US White house visit, talks on missile bas, visa, ....

President Bush Meets with Prime Minister Tusk of Poland

PRIME MINISTER TUSK: What is really very important is what we stressed in the conclusion of this meeting today, that we wanted to stop the speculations on intentions expressed by the United States and expressed by Poland. Our joint intention is to cooperate in all aspects of global security, American security, and Polish security. And an element of the security is the missile defense system.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/03/20080310-1.html

Here is an interesting article from Reuters, giving a historical perspective on the proposed missile shield that Tusk & Bush recently discussed:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4429612a12.html

Note: I have tried to post this article for discussion but it has been deleted and censored by the Forum moderators...for some reason they don't want Joe posting articles...why would that be?

IMO Russia is over stepping bounds, not that they didn't in the past.

'A PROVOCATION THAT COULD LEAD TO BLOODSHED'
Moscow Warns against NATO Membership for Georgia, Ukraine
Moscow's ambassador to NATO is calling efforts to make Georgia and Ukraine members of the military alliance "a provocation." He argues it would permanently divide Georgia and that the majority of Ukranians are opposed to membership. He also has strong words for the US' planned missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.



The attempt by the Americans to "force Georgia into the Western alliance is a provocation that could lead to bloodshed," warned Moscow's ambassador to NATO, Dimitri Rogozin, in an interview with SPIEGEL to be published on Monday.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,540296,00.html

i will tell you my current thoughts

Poland shoud go out of NATO and EU as soon as possible, while Poles are still Poles, before Poles become proud Arabs

Come sisters and brothers of Poland, come join in alliance with Serbia, Ukraine, Byelorussia and Russia. Then, Czeska, Slovakia, Bulgaria, etc, etc.

We Slavs have our bussines, we have bright future

The base is good for the United States, obviously - It gains another installation around the globe to combat potential Iranian threats toward its interests, and it expands its influence in Eastern Europe against Russia. I'm not so sure it's the best thing for Poland, although I don't believe it is the catastrophe that some are making it out to be.



If forced to choose between strengthening ties within the NATO alliance or strengthening ties with Brussels, I should surely hope that Warsaw chooses the former, as the EU is an independent nation and culture's worst nightmare. NATO may attempt to take advantage of Poland for U.S. and British military interests, but it won't strangle Polish culture and do to Poland what the EU has done to Germany, France, and is trying to do to the United Kingdom.



Russia tried fighting for Pan-Slavism in World War I; it cost them the Romanov dynasty and the freedom of their nation to a scheming pack of Bolsheviks. Bulgaria sided against Serbia in the Second Balkan War, in World War I, and in World War II(sided against Poland as well, I might add). The Czechs and the Slovaks split for a reason.

Slavs have a bright future, yes. We also have many differences, and no Slavic nation has hesitated to side with the English, or the Germans, or the Americans, if it so benefitted them.

for now brate, one thing believe to Serb and give time to all Yugoslavs

Yugoslavia didn`t collapse because Slavs are too divided. NO! Yugoslavia was destroyed from outside, by hostile non-Slavs, because of their schemes and manipulations

During the monarchy, King Alexander I of Yugoslavia was assassinated in Marseilles by Croats, Macedonians, and Bulgarians who wanted to destroy everything Yugoslavia was stood for. One of the reasons Yugoslavia fell so quickly to the German army was because of the Croatian insurgency from the inside instigated by Pavelic. Tito kept the union together through heavy-handed tactics, but at the end of the day, as was seen in the 1990's, most peoples want their own ethnic lands.

Germany was behind assasination of Alexander I King of Yugoslavia. They inspired internal conflicts and recruited Croatian ustashe and Bosnian Nazi mujaheedines (absolutely mind blowing concept!). German schemes poisoned Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian relations, too.

Same game, destroyed first and secund Yugoslavia. In both cases Serbs prooved themselves as true Gate Keepers on Southern borders of Slavia- when all other fall due to schemes, we stand and defended Slavic interests. That`s Sarmatian bid

why ally with Russia, a country that tries to dominate the Slavic world instead of working together..... Didn't it just buy Serbia's oil industry for a fraction of it's worth.... I guess it was a form of payment for Russia's support....

That's not defending Slavic interests by allowing Russia to control the entire energy flow into the Slavic world....

I am tending to agree with you...please notice, also, that the moderators of this PolishForum, in order to create confusion, have just created a new 'Josef Pilsudski'...this is not the same as myself, JoePilsudski...the moderators have done this because of censorship and harrasment reasons...they have dleted a number of new threads I have posted regearding Donald Tusk, Vladimir Putin and other public figures & news stories.
In fact, I had started a thread relating to censorship issues ans it was 'censored'.

your nut's...... Poland has not seen this type of growth in it's economy and political power for a long time.... In case you can't see it... It's because we joined the EU..

Well said Matty, Poland has been a notable beneficiary from various sources of EU funding. The growth rate was exponential, particularly in 2005.

I don't understand this anti-EU stance from anybody in Poland..... If you want the benefits of the EU, you must be prepared to give up things in return....

Absolutely, it's not a kitty which u can just withdraw funds from willy-nilly. Don't bite the hand that feeds u is a bit radical here but there needs to be some commitment from Poland. Poland has offered much by way of expanding labour markets abroad but in what other areas? Anyway, this is off-topic.

I'd love to see Russia even try to hit Poland with missiles, they'd get such a wake up, it wouldn't even be funny. They'd be brought to heel quick sharp