Education in Poland

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Dec 11, 10, 19:09 #91

Education in Poland? Ok, it's interesting that you guys defend your Master's paper. I didn't have to defend my thesis, only to give regular updates to my professor. Much the same as my dissertation but the supervisors demanded more. It struck me as being like a viva voce for PhD students. Avoiding plagiarism is key there.

I think a good question would be the motivation for doing such a paper in the first place. Too many papers submitted are like leaves in the breeze. I remember the ridiculous situation where I couldn't even get access to my own paper as it was just confined to the archives. Does the paper have to demonstrate any practical value?

Lyzko	Dec 11, 10, 19:14 #92
My point precisely, Zetigrek! Our comedians, indeed all comedians, rely on socially-specific topics, i.e 'topic' references, to make their audiences in stiches. Laughs by association, one might say. I'm not surprised you have difficulties to understand Messrs. Leno and Letterman. Me too. I'd be flabbergasted if you didn't-:)))

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Edited by: zetigrek Dec 11, 10, 19:14 #93
Seanus: I didn't have to defend my thesis, only to give regular updates to my professor. Much the same as my dissertation but the supervisors demanded more. Actually defending means just a public presentation of your work. Nothing more. Seanus: Does the paper have to demonstrate any practical value? No IMHO. Unless you study really scientific subjects.

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Dec 11, 10, 19:20 #94

Aha, it translated badly then as you have to sit in front of a panel of experts in a PhD and be grilled on your findings. I didn't fancy that and also don't see the need for PhDs in most cases.

Mine was esoteric but not the most practical. Still, it furthered knowledge in one sphere so I guess it served an educating function. Some professors just churn out articles for the sake of numbers and that's just wrong IMHO.

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Dec 11, 10, 20:03 #95

Actually defending means just a public presentation of your work. Nothing more.

Are we still talking about defending a Master's thesis in Poland?..

I graduated from UMK (Torun), and I must tell you, my defending was a full-fledged exam, including direct questions about my thesis, questions about bibliography I used, and general knowledge of the topic in a much wider spectrum than I actually wrote about. Definitely not a simple formality.

Does the paper have to demonstrate any practical value?

It depends on your field of study. The 'practical' ones will need you to present your practical skills, while the more theoretical subjects will not. However, in Polish universities, there isn't that much stress put on it. As I gather from most of the previous posts it is widely regarded as a flaw, but personally, I don't think it's that bad of a viewpoint.

My university professors used to say 'if you want practical skills, go to vocational schools'. It was a huge overstatement, but still there is some sense to it - Master's degree is neither a practical skill course nor a PhD. It doesn't make you a scientist, it mostly proves you have the grasp of the the topic, you can compile data, understand it, draw conclusions, present them and back them up in a form of a long text. It's great if your conclusions are somewhat practical, but forcing a Master's degree level studies into practical use where it doesn't naturally follow, mostly results in studies of 'how come bread always falls butter-side down' kind, and that, on Polish unis, is considered waste of time.

Master's degree is regarded as a basic 'outcome' of getting higher education in Poland (graduating with a license, although now actually possible, is still widely considered giving up half way). It's quite possibly the reason why any serious studies begin above that level, unless we're talking about some specialist, unpopulated divisions where every pair of hands counts. (I had a friend in astronomy division who started helping with her professors' studies as soon as she got the vibe of how to handle observatory equipment, because it needed constant attention and they had too little PhDs to manage)

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Edited by: zetigrek Dec 11, 10, 20:04 #96
Seanus: Aha, it translated badly then as you have to sit in front of a panel of experts in a PhD and be grilled on your findings. you present it in front of such panel and they may ask questions.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 20:20 #97
Good post from yuaelt above. I thought it was sth more than a mere formality as many students often fret over it. It is a very important component of the overall programme.

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Dec 12, 10, 13:46 #98

Lyzko:

Our comedians, indeed all comedians, rely on socially-specific topics, i.e 'topic' references, to make their audiences in stiches. Laughs by association, one might say

Exactly, they might refer to things like cartoons or old movies, which a foreigner doesn't know. Enough to see Shrek in Polish and in english. The Polish version is riddled with references to Polish movies and actors ("ciemność widzę"). Polish people will also use quotes from Polish movies or books, which will not make sense to a person who hasn't seen them - "parówkowym skrytożercom mówimy stanowcze "nie!" or "a podejdź no do płota, jak i ja podchodzę"...and many many more.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 12, 10, 14:38 #99
Seanus: It struck me as being like a viva voce for PhD students. Avoiding plagiarism is key there. It's not a bad idea at all - though I question the point of defending the BA dissertation.

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Dec 12, 10, 19:47 #100

Well, one might say that it prepares you for the PhD defence if you do one early days in your uni career during your Bachelors. However, another line of thought says that you should be able to rise to the challenge of a PhD anyway without significant prep. I was surprised that I didn't have one during my LLM but the profs were no doubt encouraging independent initiative and dispensed with the panel requirement. Any which way, as long as the format and expectations are spelled out to the student, they know what''s coming :)

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Dec 13, 10, 00:22 #101

Master dissertation's defense is a joke in some Unis. Especially polytchnics. You get an examining board that consists of random teachers - there's a pretty big chance they won't have a clue what your thesis is about. You have roughly 10 - 15 minutes to talk about your thesis after which they are supposed to ask questions. Some thesis advisers don't read it at all..

Nobody asks any because they are afraid to show that they didn't understand most of it, because it's completely not their cup a tea.
Moreover some people have laughable and easy topics you could do in 2 weeks, others have a giant project which requires 1,5 year of research and hard work.

In the last part which is another set of questions each member asks one or several general knowledge questions ( in line with their scientific background ). Student usually knows what area of knowledge it is or he knows exact questions, all depends on whims of these random board people. It's very unever between different students, good students can get a bad mark because they got randomized a guy who requires reading several of his books, and on the other hand students who get one question with the answer on wikipedia...

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Dec 13, 10, 09:44 #102
frd: frd I agree with you.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,959 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Edited by: southern Dec 13, 10, 09:46 #103
When I see the red stockings of Polki during matura I know that education is in good path.

landoraThreads: 1 Posts: 191 Joined: Oct 14, 09 ♀	Dec 13, 10, 11:09 #104
southern: When I see the red stockings of Polki during matura I know that education is in good path. It's actually pants, not stockings.

terriThreads: 1 Posts: 385 Joined: May 3, 09 ♀	Dec 13, 10, 19:43 #105
landora: When I see the red stockings of Polki during matura I know that education is in good path. >>>>what you're really after is someone in high heeled knee-length black leather boots and a cat o'nine tails - then your education will be complete.

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Dec 13, 10, 22:09 #106
terri: >>>>what you're really after is someone in high heeled knee-length black leather boots and a cat o'nine tails - then your education will be complete. what does it suppose to mean?

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Dec 17, 10, 16:20 #107
TO GERMANS: what's the difference between realschule and hauptschule? What kids are taught there? Are those schools some kind of vocational school?

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Dec 17, 10, 17:48 #108
zetigrek: what's the difference between realschule and hauptschule? What kids are taught there? Are those schools some kind of vocational school? Hauptschule is like basic middle/high school. Realschule is more geared towards technical education, Gymnasium is for hippies :) There is a push in some areas to combine the three you can still do vocational school/apprenticeships after each one.

Lyzko	Dec 17, 10, 18:10 #109
Hauptschule = liceum ogółnoskszcałne Gymnasium in Germany is roughly equivalent to the corresponding Polish "liceum", minus perhaps the language requirement. At least that's how a Pole explained it to me. She's an instructor at a college, so I figure she's correct-:)

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Dec 17, 10, 18:32 #110

convex:

Hauptschule is like basic middle/high school. Realschule is more geared towards technical education, Gymnasium is for hippies :)

I've read that Hauptschule is the worst kind of school where basicly only poor students attend (=mostly imigrants) and it doesn't permit to take the Abitur (Matura) exam. Realschule is slightly better as you can jump to gimnasium and pass the Abitur. And Gimnasium is for the smart and well-promising students who want to continue education in unis.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Dec 17, 10, 19:32 #111
Most Germans today have a Hauptschule certificate. You can still do vocational school afterwards and get an abitur. Gymnasium is usually for people going into non technical fields, Realschule is where all the programmers and engineers come from. Interestingly enough, the financial situation of students is pretty even across the different schools, as it is based on performance, not ability to pay.

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Edited by: zetigrek Dec 17, 10, 19:53 #112

convex:

Most Germans today have a Hauptschule certificate.

Most Poles today have vocational school certificate. In PRL it was popular path of education. Nowadays vocational school are attended by worst kids mostly from social margins while liceum ogólnokształcące is the main choice of average and smart teenagers.

convex:

Interestingly enough, the financial situation of students is pretty even across the different schools, as it is based on performance, not ability to pay.

At the age of 10???

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Dec 17, 10, 19:54 #113

convex:

Interestingly enough, the financial situation of students is pretty even across the different schools, as it is based on performance, not ability to pay.

Great approach. So, convex, you want to say that already at the highschool level there is a kind of separation between students based on their performance and because of that there are different highschools? If this is so - it is outstanding. I wish I had similar thing back in my childhood :)

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Edited by: zetigrek Dec 17, 10, 19:56 #114

Nathan:

So, convex, you want to say that already at the highschool level there is a kind of separation between students based on their performance and because of that there are different highschools?

They are not highschools my dear. You are send to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium at the age of 10 (according to wikipedia). They decide about your future at so early age...

Nathan:

So, convex, you want to say that already at the highschool level there is a kind of separation between students based on their performance and because of that there are different highschools? If this is so - it is outstanding. I wish I had similar thing back in my childhood :)

You did not?
Where did you attend school? I thought you are Ukrainian

In Poland there is also a separation but at the age of 15/16.

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Dec 17, 10, 19:58 #115

zetigrek:

Most Poles today have vocational school certificate. Now vocational school are attended by worst kids mostly from social margins while liceum ogólnokształcące is the main choice of normal and smart teenagers.

It's fairly egalitarian in German schools. From what I've seen, there is equal representation.

zetigrek:

At the age of 10???

Yea, I think it's a bit early as well...but it's a good indicator. You can always switch up later, your path isn't set in stone.

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Edited by: zetigrek Dec 17, 10, 20:02 #116

convex:

You can always switch up later, your path isn't set in stone.

Oh that's good. I was a little bit shocked reading that...

convex:

It's fairly egalitarian in German schools. From what I've seen, there is equal representation.

I've read a wiki article and it says that situation is similar to Polish in voctional schools nowadays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptschule#Problems

Hauptschule students have come to be increasingly stigmatized over the last years, the opinion of the general public often being that Hauptschulen only harbor the bottom end of society. Stereotypes of dysfunctional family backgrounds, absent and/or unemployed parents and domestic violence and alcohol abuse are often cited when describing what is believed to be the typical social origin of these students

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Dec 17, 10, 20:05 #117
There is a stigma there, as it's the lowest form of education...but the student body is made up of all different social classes. It's important to remember that the majority of Germans are Hauptschule graduates.

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Edited by: Nathan Dec 17, 10, 20:07 #118

zetigrek:

They are not highschools my dear.

Oh, I see. Thanks, zetigrek.

zetigrek:

You are sent to hauptschule, realschule or gymnasium at the age of 10 (according to wikipedia). They decide about your future at so early age...

This is fantastic! I remember in my class which was a lump-up continuum from grade 1 to grade 10 there were kids that should have been taught separately - they had a quick wit and were wasting their time learning what they already knew. They were bored. And they were eager to learn more than the school program was carved out to provide. I think at age of 10 one can pretty much determine not exactly what a kid is interested to do later in his/her life, but the potential to learn new stuff at school. This separation into different schools is really great.

zetigrek:

Where did you attend school? I thought you are Ukrainian

I am. But I was at school back in the SU and they kept us all together like flies in one can :)

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Edited by: zetigrek Dec 17, 10, 20:11 #119

Nathan:

This is fantastic! I remember in my class which was a lump-up continuum from grade 1 to grade 10 there were kids that should have been taught separately - they had a quick wit and were wasting their time learning what they already knew.

Yeah I know that pain. But note that when I was 10 I was gaining very bad marks and when I was 13 I was best student in my school... so you see, it can be too early to judge...

In Poland we should make the podstawówka exams being a pass to gimnazjum. That would be good as it would be just before the teenage rebelion age when kids starts to be problematic.

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Dec 17, 10, 20:29 #120

zetigrek:

But note that when I was 10 I was gaining very bad marks and when I was 13 I was best student in my school... so you see, it can be too early to judge...

I know. You cannot make one rule to fit all. But the system should be flexible and when a student from let's say hauptschule is making great progress and is interested in going further ease of transfer to realschule should be available.

zetigrek:

In Poland we should make the podstawówka exams being a pass to gimnazjum. That would be good as it would be just before the teenage rebelion age when kids starts to be problematic.

Yes, it is a great idea.

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