The worst of Polish education. No wonder Polish universities are bottom of the list.

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Edited by: southern Oct 18, 11, 12:27 #121

It is what I accuse middle class offsprings for.They paid openly to get degrees all over former eastern european countries and then pressed the government to achieve recognition of diplomas of their offsprings.Of course they are afraid of any sort of exam competition.They constitute a bulk now.All these people are against any form of evaluation and drag average way too down.They are in my opinion a crucial factor for the crisis if you consider widespread incompetency in every sphere.
Their arguments are:
1.Everyone is able to study despite any inherent capabilities
2.How am I supposed to compete against memorizers?
3.How am I supposed to compete for few positions against people who take private tutors for years?Even if I do the same I will fail cause private tutoring increases exam performance to unaccessible levels and pushes up bars
4.It is unfair to have such difficult exams at early age and before entering university
5.These exams do not measure abilities needed for the job in practice
etc
And all the above arguments were supported by every party cause such students were voters also while noone in mass media or government bothered to publish or say any word about the different opinion.So now who should fit the bill?They made the sh1t they will eat it.Some things are inevitable.

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Oct 18, 11, 12:37 #122

And all the above arguments were supported by every party cause such students were voters also while noone bothered to publish or say any word about the different opinion.So now who should fit the bill?They made the sh1t they will eat it.Some things are inevitable.
For example you can imagine the lack of respect which I feel for the son of the proffessor who started studying in Romania after failing the national exams then got transfered to Greek university exploiting laws for diseased people thanks to his fathers' connections got the best grades and became proffessor in his father's position.Not only do I not support him but I wish his catastrophy.In this way bankruptcy is a desired thing because it has shown exactly the vulnerabilities and deficiencies of all those bragging before.They were so obnoxious.I wish as Caligula said that they all had a head to cut it off with one move.But we will exterminate them sooner or later because they gradually lose control.They no longer determine developments.

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Edited by: Natasa Oct 18, 11, 12:47 #123

southern:

Their arguments are:
1.Everyone is able to study despite any inherent capabilities,
2.How am I supposed to compete against memorizers?
3.How am I supposed to compete for few positions against people who take private tutors for years?Even if I do the same I will fail cause private tutoring increases exam performance to unaccessible levels and pushes up bars
4.It is unfair to have such difficult exams at early age and before entering university
5.These exams do not measure abilities needed for the job in practice
etc

Nobody here claims anything similar. University graduation demands general abilities at least above average. And everybody agrees on that. Here the cream is collected by Faculties of Philosophy, History, Literary theory, Psychology, Political sciences, sociology, Electro - engineering, Molecular biology, Mathematics,...If you were less gifted you'd apply for Medicine, Stomtology, Machine engineering ,economy, management in business, Law, other sciences or if you are close to population average in IQ then Technology, Agriculture and so on...
That is Belgrade Uni ranking. Novi Sad perhaps differs, we did research on abilities in convergent and divergent thinking and those were app. results.

stop the earth i want to get off

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Oct 18, 11, 14:10 #124

Natasa:

the cream is collected by Faculties of Philosophy, History, Literary theory, Psychology, Political sciences, sociology, Electro - engineering, Molecular biology, Mathematics,.

These are faculties iyou can get in without any exams in Poland , because nobody wants to study and get a diploma from such faculties . Belgrade is very strange , because anywhere in the world medicine and law are the most coveted faculties .

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,959 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 18, 11, 16:37 #125
Generally Europe lacks standardized pan european exams for proffessionals and nobody is willing to change the situation because certain circles interests come into play.

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Oct 18, 11, 17:54 #126

polmed:

These are faculties iyou can get in without any exams in Poland , because nobody wants to study and get a diploma from such faculties . Belgrade is very strange , because anywhere in the world medicine and law are the most coveted faculties .

It depicts more situation in the mid and end of 90s, now it has changed. During 50 years of liberal socialism they established that practice. Market demand shifted the student population to those promising more lucrative career. It makes sense that strictly academic studies - like philosophy, art history, literature are chosen by those who can afford themselves unemployed situation later. Those practical, professional like managements and law are now getting the attention, so there is crowd, there is harder selection. Although Law faculty doesn't select at the beginning, but during studies, having a high rate of those who give up studying.

Medicine has a problem with mass production everywhere, hence selection is not so strict as it should be, like on those Faculties that have a quote of max 60 students per year. So, some are not so bright. I visited many doctors in my life, not just in Serbia, and I can SEE them start to really think sometimes :)

I forgot, our brightest go to Faculty of dramatic arts, departments of dramaturgy and directing.

stop the earth i want to get off

♂

Edited by: southern Oct 18, 11, 19:47 #127

As I have multiple times analyzed it is a problem of offsprings and their parents power.For example a swedish student who cannot pass to swedisch medical school due to mediocre abilities decides to pay and gets accepted in a medical school in eastern Europe.After paying 9000 tuition fees and some bribing he presses for recognition of equaility of his diploma.In this regard one of his main arguments is that he paid.The point is that a physician in Sweden makes 5000 euro per month for example while in Romania he makes 250 euro per month.So it is normal that not so good academically students tend to choose medicine as first choice in Romania.The Swedish mediocre student exploits this difference and then wants to work in Sweden with swedish salaries.

The whole thing is not free market economy as they want to present it but constant sh1t of the middle class.It is not a social problem it is a sh1t problem.Because the question is why did Sweden not simply increase the number of medical schools if they wanted more doctors?Whey did not they increase the number of doctors in swedish schools?The answer is that they did so to keep high selectivity and secure high level of students and graduates through that.However people who can afford sth more have always a different opinion and press to another direction.In Greece the problem is multiply exaggerated and happens in every school with value in the market.Low level degrees from countries with low standards who accept everyone get equalized with degrees from local universities and world famous universities.This unhealthy idiotic pressure to equalization appearing through the pseudoprocess of egalization which in fact is creating double standards for the incompetent middle class offsprings is now a bomb in the ground of the system.

I very much enjoy seeing all these ''experts'' with the ''degrees'' they paid for getting continuously burned and humiliated during the negotiations with the Germans.The Germans punish them in unforgettable manner with sadistic pleasure.They know that they are completely hollow inside and sting the baloon they created.Since sh1t is sh1t the elites will not receive any feedback or support till they get completely burned and hung.We talk here about inevitable processes to create their destruction you just have to allow them handling in the foreground and rely on their given incompetency.

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Oct 18, 11, 20:14 #128

Our state faculties behaved in that manner ONLY to foreign students and only on some faculties, they were out of the system totally. Mostly we saw their names on the exams lists, but not them. For domestic students none of this applied. Criteria were high and those with incompetent offsprings :) who got rich during 90s sent their lazy kids to less known schools outside. They came back with the degrees from god knows where, knowing exactly nothing. I knew some and their capacities to study and their abilities that were average with total absence of studying discipline. So, some lousy private Western schools also engaged in hyper production of experts. For those who couldn't pay the UK or US party time of their kids, they opened private Universities here where they produced various diplomas(one of them 120 PhD's in last year) which was scandalous, having in mind the number of those titles state universities give per year. Now, those less rich do that buy the degree here if they can afford to pay 5000 to 6000 euro per year get a diploma with few hours of studying.

stop the earth i want to get off

♂

Oct 18, 11, 20:31 #129

Natasa:

ONLY to foreign students and only on some faculties, they were out of the system totally. Mostly we saw their names on the exams lists, but not them

Exactly.Now they form a bulk in Greece.I wrote about the situation and its possible implications some years ago in fact I had predicted a crisis in 2008 for the years to come.Now these individuals are part of the system and they are core part.It is structural problem irreversible.They have brought in a magnitude of dumb folks with degrees only the amount is astonishing.What more they feel entitled to the salares these degrees are supposed to provide.Inflation of degrees has catastrophic effects from every aspect although some may dream that a foreign investor would be glad to come to Greece since there are so many people with degrees.

polmedThreads: 2 Posts: 274 Joined: Sep 25, 11 ♀	Oct 18, 11, 20:58 #130
Natasa: strictly academic studies - like philosophy, art history, literature Those were lucrative and highly regarded fields of human interests under the Greek and Roman empires , for sure, but not now or within the post war times .

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08 ♂	Oct 18, 11, 21:05 #131
polmed: Those were lucrative and highly regarded fields of human interests under the Greek and Roman empires , for sure, but not now or within the post war times . So much the worse for the country whose citizens share your point.

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Edited by: Natasa Oct 18, 11, 21:16 #132

polmed:

Those were lucrative and highly regarded fields of human interests under the Greek and Roman empires

Highly regarded yes, lucrative in short periods of human history in ancient times if they were related to politics. Southern will know that part better.

Law was both highly regarded and well payed since Romans, but the profession itself faced horrible loss of good name since then. Lawyers are everywhere rich, they can be brilliant but some have serious tendency to be morally problematic. I heard forensic psychiatrists call them 'Psychopaths with the membership in Law chamber', aiming at their total lack of empathy, aggressiveness,non existing or loose moral code, greed and so on. Of course that I don't think that way and it surely wasn't said in a way that it applies to all. Decent people, like everywhere else can be found. But they mostly struggle to survive.

I truly liked studying law, but I have to admit, I had tags attached immediately after legitimizing as a law student (memorizer, materialistic, conformist). It was stigmatized profession among wider circle of my friends (students of above mentioned faculties and artistic academies).

stop the earth i want to get off

♂

Edited by: southern Oct 18, 11, 21:49 #133

Lawyers make heavy use of fallacies.I remember I had a conversation with a distinct lawyer and he started argumentswith fallacies it was unbelievable.He used 3-4 fallacies together even if he could get straight to the point without using them.I recognized them quite easily and answered him in internet mode like it was a conversation in PF.His arguments were in level directed towards the general public no way he could convince me by them.After my objections he became quite angry and agitated.He started calling names,personal attack and did not leave me to speak anymore.
In general if you want to totally confuse a lawyer just change his perception of the audience.Just put the bar a little higher above his intellectual abilities and he will be crashed.Of course this is a refined fallacy as well.Lawyers and proffessors hate to admit that they represent the average or common sense so he will never use this argument of average and common sense.
Another easy way to beat a lawyer is to refuse to reveal the evidence for your claims until you like to present them.In this way the laawyer gets confused because he does not know if you have evidence or not and makes incorrect defense.This is the soviet method.It is common practice between lawyers to disclose their evidence to each other even as opposing parts before the trial it is considered to be a gentlemen's agreement.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,959 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 18, 11, 22:14 #134
In general I have seen the transformation of law students from normal people to arrogant pricks.Since I am aware of their intelligence status I like to expose them one way or another.Law lets in for ambiguous terms and you can really have a lot of fun.

coldlikedeathThreads: 1 Posts: 7 Joined: Oct 28, 11 ♀	Nov 6, 11, 03:37 #135
I cheated ONCE on a smallfish religion exam in 3rd year; the teacher left the room and we all tried to get as many answers as poss cos we couldn’t remember em! Funny at the time. not now. I'm at the University of Silesia and I wouldn’t dare cheat, it’d screw up everything.

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