WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland

He did not want to exterminate the Poles.Only to eliminate the intelligentia and use Poles as slave-workers for the Reich.Polish workforce was considered an important factor for the Reich's prosperity.

Warsaw had no military significance for the Germans.They fought fanatically for it in order to cause clash between GB,USA and Soviet Union regarding the help to polish resistance.They wanted a heavy conflict between the allies that would lead to the dissolvement of alliance.

Thanks for your detailed response. Notwithstanding the 'hypothetical' nature of it, I think you're pretty close tot he mark. Paraphrased, the GB govt did not have the guts or the temerity to honour their promise. That's it really isnt it? Put the shoe on the other foot, and I think it's safe to say the Poles would have acted differently. Big call, but there it is.



It is and it does answer it well.



These were token offers. The assistance given tot he SOE by the Poles far outweighed any benefit derived by the Poles. With the exception of a few men and women of conscience, it seems apparent that Poles were merely used as a convenient tool. As I said, the balance sheet of Polish contributions to the GB contributions is heavily stacked in Poland's favour. As to 'giving' Poles a place to live, give me a break. After their usefulness and novelty wore off (starting from the end of the B of B), many were despised, ridiculed and made to feel as though they had no home.

As to rotting in Romania, Poles flocked to England regardless of GB governement intervention -they were under the mistaken belief that sacrifice for GB would be paid in kind. Dont fantasise that it was the GB that let them out of their pens.

As to giving the Poles the means to fight freely and without interference, what do you mean? Oh, I know - they were used where and when the allies needed them and kicked ass wherever they went but without any iota of gain or benefit flowing back. As to the Frantic airdrops, those individual pilots were heroes, and with solemn respect to their memory, I would hazard to say that they would roll in their graves if their individual courage and selflessness was attributed to any checklist of GB's contributions suggestive of a governmental mindset or policy/doctrine of assistance for Poland.



Now this is plain disrespect to the forum. By inference, you say that every forum poster is not on an intellectual par with you. Now's the opportunity to retract my good man.

As to the second sentence, this is a "polish forum". This means that you will encounter Poles, or persons of Polish extraction (such as me) discussing and argiung all things Polish. Given the fictions, fallacies and fantasies surrounding Polish history, ytou will come across people who will offend your sense of how a historic discussion should proceed. You see, until very recently (and in some cases not yet), the documents/notes/memos surrounding what actually happened to Poland were locked up. In some cases they were destroyed or went missing. A prime example is BIP's archive, which was delivered to the GB govt at the finale of the war and was 'lost'. Poles didnt have the luxury of a long unbroken chain of documented history, untainted by interference and redrafting by other countries and cultures. We're still discovering what really happened. I suggest you read Norman Davies Rising 44 if you havent already.

I wonder why when discussing history Poles seem to focus on being 'hard done by', or what their achivements are. Maybe it's because despite all the achivements the Poles were in fact hard done by relative to other countries. It's particularly galling when a lot of the achievements were made for the beneift of others who did not have the gratitude to repay in kind. In that sense, I think Poland is arguably unique in the world.

I look forward to your retraction and response.

Cheers, Dan

- Good God, that is a very good very eloquent post, Dan. I'll be awaiting isthatu's reply with great excitement.

Cheers.
:)

- Looks like the usual westernist putting-down-the-Poles propaganda. It used to be quite naughty (and silly) in Britain and US. I remember something similar - the claims that the Polish-Russian war of 1920 was won thanks to the French. Norman Davies has demolished this myth in His White Eagle Red Star. Perhaps the Polonophobic Cassino myth needs a similar treatment?

Not a problem. No,neville chamberlins govt had no guts,by the time GB had a govt with the guts to fight a war it was May 1940 and the Bltzkrieg had rolled west.


How? By invading germany,no offence to the heros of bzura et al but Poland was in about as good a position as GB to attack Germany at this time.


I dont think I ever implied it was the GB govt that released them,(infact,most went to france first from romania),in my hypothisis of a war without GB or Fr involvement I simply stated fact,where would they have gone too from Romania?


All I can talk about are the many dozens of families in my small town and the hundreds of others in the larger town near me who were welcomed with open arms by the locals(yes,the govt wanted people out,no question,but this was everyone,not some form of "polonophobic" conspiricy) and have had the red and white flying on our local war monuments for the last 60 odd years.


ok,so why do you think its any different to your rather distastfull premise that there should be some sort of tally of who did what for who? Is the british life lost over warsaw any less worthy than the Polish life lost over london? I attempted to respond to your idea that somehow you can take the deeds of individuals and try and see who did more for whom ,maybe I came up short,maybe its just something that can never be equated,The starting premis is,GB only went to war at that time because of its alliance with Poland and France,we all lost,britain 360.000+ lives,each one ,cold hard fact,only lost because we went to war because Poland was invaded.Yes,Poland lost many many more people,so if you can reduce it to a tally of deaths then,you win(lose),frankly though,I prefer to leave comparisons of suffering to a certain other group of people.


No reflection needed,I stand by my words,of course there are people on here with great amounts of knowladgebut,and this is a huge big but, there are also always jingoistic idiots,with very little knowladge beyond that gleaned from war films who seem to ruin the level of debate/discusion.If you notice,the person who started this thread hasn had much to say...so I rest my case there m'lud.


As are we here in GB,as you may or may not know,the secret of enigma for example only came out in the mid-late 70s,many things are still top secret here.
No your Bip papers wernt lost,they will have been destroyed,simple,along with many historical records pertaining directly to britain. Do you not think that here in the UK we were not flooded with Yank propaganda,or more specifically anti Soviet propaganda,down playing the war in the east here as much as it was over played the other side of the curtain. Yes,I understand the idiosyncracies of Polands troubled history as much as an interested outsider can,but I still say a Pole who spouts nonsence is as bad as a Brit who thinks "we won the war" on our own should maybe just read more and type less.

rather battered and bruised it is too, though even ole Norm is open to debate( the photos of 2nd armd captioned as airborne spring to mind,as well as one or two fictional streets that members of the home army association have never heard of) and dont get me started on his bloomin anoying Mr K' this and DR A' that,grrrr:)


Yes,doesnt play well to "stiff upper lip" british audiences. We prefer the older stereotype we used to have in Brritain of the " Plucky Pole" or the "Galent airmen" etc etcnot the whinging type,especially as most people in Britain who know their history know a lot more about the Poles than Poles maybe think we do.

sorry,what do you mean,pay inkind? How,were we meant to start WW3 against,what was to all intents and purposesa Soviet union with a Polish ally,to liberate Poland for "our" Poles? A Pole invented the hand held mine sweeper,much used by all forces in the desert campain and elswhere,so what,a yank invented the sherman that Poles drove on the way to defeating Germany.How do you mesure up acheivments in wartime then "pay in kind"?

well,some could say this,I wouldnt myself,unless you mean unique in not realising that ww2 was a combined effort by many nations and no one nations contributions outwayed,or played a significant role in the defeat of germany( i would hazard a guess at the T34 tank,but without its christie suspension ......) above any others,and to say so just seems to be trying too hard at patriotism.




Not at all Puzz' every school boy in britain (when kids cared about these things) knows it was Poles who eventually captured monestery Hill from the gerry para's so calm down,it isnt a bbc conspiricy ;)
What it is infact is the usuall "westernest" put down of non white participation in WW2thankfully this is slowly changing. I never claimed the Poles didnt capture Monte Cassino,all I pointed out was the imple fact that cassino had lost all strategic significane by the time it fell as the road to Rome had already been opened.Rather than being pee'd off at me for pointing this out,get pee'd off at Freyburg and Alexander for waisting Polish lives against a figurehead objective.

so,in short,this only exists in your mind I hope,I repeat,all british students of ww2 know the poles bleed like the poppies to capture cassino.

hate to disapoint you,but the polish /soviet war hardly figures on the radar in this country.....although,yes,I have read the book,interesting to read about so many Polish divisions entirely equipped with British uniforms and rifles :)

sorry dan,just an add on to this,they were not lost by the GB govt,rather by one of the " Cambridge Spies" off the top of my head I would have to guess at Kim Phillby,working in the forgiegn office at the time and a puppet of the NKVD/KGB, I think this is discussed in breiff in the appendix of Red Runs The Vistula" but,having lost that in the june floods someone else will have to confirm this for you....

Simply at that era Poles had lost the right to decide for themselves.



I do not think these 360000 Brits were lost for the liberation of Poland.

Aug 23, 1939 - Nazis and Soviets sign Pact.

Aug 25, 1939 - Britain and Poland sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty.

Aug 31, 1939 - British fleet mobilizes; Civilian evacuations begin from London.


Carol

The dates are not important at all.What is importants is what hides behind each part's decisions.

and I did not say they did,
Im sorry,let me make myself crystal on this,regardless of whether Poland was liberated or not 360.000 British citizens and countless thousands of comenwealth citizens lost their lives because Britain declared war against germany as part of her alliance with Poland. No alliance,no war ( at that time,maybe a year or so later,who knows) so if you like,with your logic,they gave their lives for nothing,as the origional aim of the treaty,that is,the liberation of Poland from nazi germany never happened. Oh wait, yes it did,just with the wrong sort of liberators.....



I disagree, the dates in fact


serve to highlight the case for the defence regarding GB not being in a position to invade germany while Poland still fought on(openly). How could a british army have been shipped from around the world or even just across the channel in that time?

oh,and southern, when you are talking about the deaths of thousands of British civilians,men women and children,please have the courtesy not to call them "brits",I do not talk about dead "Pollacks" .

World war was coming and Britain would have had to join sooner or later anyway... And in the end for Poland It didn't really matter If Britain joined or not, so If you say that we should thank you or something then you are simply talking crap.

I am sorry,I did not know the term is derrogatory.Of course these people are brave and we are grateful for them since they fought and died for our freedom,in a war that in the beginning seemed to be lost.

maybe Britain now expect that Poles repay them historic debt down there on Kosovo, on Balkan, where their mujaheedine friends already helping them

none needed mate, I know "brits" is a commen name for us but it carries conetations of loony Provo IRA types setting bombs off in shopping centers and theatres. probably close to calling an american "a Yank" ,depends when you use it and who you adress it to. :)

G', what-everrrrrrr


What are you twitering on about crow,Our soldiers are too busy fighting real wars to worry whether you set of bandits slaughter each other again.Just do the world a favour this time and cut back a bit on the crucifying and the mass rapes.....and dont dare call me a liar or puppet of false west propaganda, my best mate hung himself because he couldnt get over what he'd seen your glorious serb soldiers do in a village. Do you want to hear about the little bosnian baby stuck to its mothers chest with an iron pole rammed through them both?

spare me from your slanderings and propaganda

Even British media speak openly about great love between official NATO and Islamic mujaheedines. We just have to see what monstrous `child` would be born from that `love`

No. Not whatever. British citizens died because Germans and Soviet were trying to dominate Europe, not "because Britain declared war against germany as part of her alliance with Poland".

G' your turning part troll,.........

Not at all. You know many historical facts but looks like you don't really understand connections between them.

we could all say the same about you and your eternally spotless faith in your butchers of srebrinica ............crow,one last thing,Serbs slaughtered Slavs,get that into your poor lied to skull,the Bosnian Muslims were and are Slavs.

what are you on about? Of course,eventually Britain may have been dragged into a wider european war even if it hadnt declared war BECAUSE HITLER INVADED POLAND, but as it did declare war BECAUSE HITLER INVADED POLAND,those lives war lost because of a war started soley for the reason that HITLER INVADED POLAND. Not for some hypothetical war that didnt take place,but the one that did which started ,you guessed it BECAUSE HITLER INVADED POLAND. So,ergo,those lives were lost BECAUSE HITLER INVADED POLAND .

Not "may" but for sure. Germans would have taken on France and low countries to eliminate a risk of attack from the back during war with Soviet Union and then Britain wouldn't have had excuse to stay away. And no matter, who would have won (Soviets or Gerries) they wouldn't have left GB alone.



They were lost because Gerries attacked France and UK. You did shi*t for Poland. Poles did much more for you, so your thinking that we should be somehow "grateful" is ridiculous.

yes yes yes,all very plausable...but purely hypothetical,ie it didnt happen this way,so my above answer stands.

could be because I wasnt born till 75..........

yawwwwn, Yes,of course,won the battle of britain singlehandedly,then swept rommel out of north africa,then,yep,landed in france on d day(oops,no you didnt,you had two boats somewhere off the coast) and fought all the way to the elbe ,all on your own,with those guns and tanks you all made in sheds in the garden ,oh and obviously cracked all the codes going ,didnt a Pole actually shoot hitler,this thing about him killing him self is all just polonophobic propaganda to make all those british people who didnt actually die but all sat around drinking tea while only Poles fought,feel better....
G' youve lost it..........................................................................................

quote me saying this,in full,not your usual part post or bit of a sentance taken out off context.

Poles fought there.



Poles fought there.

:)

er,yes they did,well done,have a cookie(so did some french pilots :) )



,er,no they didnt,they served on some ships of the invasion fleet but the Poles didnt land in France for some time to come(then fought like tigers)
I think you missed the irony I was aiming at G' :)

LoL ;)



I'm sorry, i just read your answers, not what was before ;)

So the Polish pilots had nothing to do at all with the allied victory? England, without the help of Polish, Czech, French, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Canadians, Indians, etc. would have fallen just as qucik - fact. Accept it.



Yeah, with 5% being Poles that held 12% of kills in Battle of Britain. They killed twice their numbers. Not to mention that there we Czechs and many other groups helping out too.

Yeah, thanks EG ;)

GB simply intervened when Hitler tried to change the european balance of power dramatically to his favour.Hitler never intented to invade GB because in his view destruction of England would lead to strengthening of bolshekivism.