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Are you too selfish to leave Poland?
posts: 19
 
dannyboy
  May 9, 07, 04:55  #1
Do you think you would be too selfish to leave Poland and work abroad so that your family can have a better life?

How would you feel about your jealous friends who lie and say you are cleaning toilets because they don't care about their family and are too lazy to travel and work abroad?
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Ranj
Edited by: Ranj  May 9, 07, 05:02  #2
If one actually leaves to help their family out, that's not selfish.....if jealous "friends" tell lies about that person, well then, they really arent friends, are they? Besides, even if someone is cleaning toilets, its an honest job with honest pay.....better than someone going out and selling drugs to school children, or some other illegal activity for an easy buck.
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ladystardust
Edited by: ladystardust  May 9, 07, 05:07  #3
Well, I actually think it may be very, very selfish to leave. Frankly, I know that there is high unemployment rate in Poland, but not as high and the whole situation is not as terrible as it is presented on TV or newspapers. I never had any problems with working here, nor my family or friends. There is a whole bunch of Poles, though, who say: "I am not going to work here at some company for 1500 PLN a month, I prefer to get the hell out of here" - and I think that is selfish, not thinking of the fact that if everyone leaves, it will never be better here. Young people is what the country needs most at the moment, and we need them here, not in the UK, where they don't give a damn about anything, just earn pounds. OF COURSE, I am not talking about all Poles abroad - only of a fraction of them.

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daffy
  May 9, 07, 05:13  #4
I can see this topic is going to have some 'interesting' remarks made.

I wouldn't g so far to call it selfishness. It is a very big decision. Many an Irishperson faced these until the recent economic boom and it was not an easy snap decision.

My father took us to the UK to get work and I was too young to understand the economic background to it at all.

I think that its people's call to decide to follow the money (historically proven to be a large drawing factor) or to try make the best of it at home.

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dannyboy
Edited by: dannyboy  May 9, 07, 05:18  #5
Quoting: daffy
I can see this topic is going to have some 'interesting' remarks made


I hope so daffy.

Given some of the comments I've seen on other areas of the forum, I think a little spin & perspective may be a good thing.

More than 1 way to skin a cat!
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daffy
  May 9, 07, 05:22  #6
Quoting: dannyboy
More than 1 way to skin a cat!


the fact anyone would 'want' to skin a cat lol ;)

Its an interesting topic in the 'what are you thinking about when considering to leave Poland'
I still think the 'selfish' aspect you mention is not as key a player. Selfishly, I would imagine your more disposed to doing whats best for you - which is usually more money init.

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sparrow
  May 9, 07, 05:52  #7
I left allready lol.. but my parents made me 20 years ago so.. didn't have a choice :)
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davidpeake
  May 9, 07, 06:13  #8
its a hard decision, with all the adventure of moving and earning better money. I work with a few companies in smaller towns that pay good, train there staff up, only for them to leave and head to countries that pay 3 times as much, i would hope that the Polish Government would step in and help out compaies here, not just the ones coming from abroad.
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zion [Guest]
  May 9, 07, 09:06  #9
true is if they dont pay at least 3000 PLN in net in people hands 80 % of the working age people in this Place will leave and that is valid for me also .

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Varsovian
  May 9, 07, 09:45  #10
Slightly daft question in the first place - selfishness, emigration etc

You sell your skills for the highest price in terms of purchasing power. Some social elements come into it naturally. Capitalism is all about the pursuit of economic self-interest, and the individual fits in as well as s/he can.

I could choose to work all night as well as all day - that way I could earn more money. I don't because I choose to spend my time in other ways. I suppose you could call that selfish too.

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Bartolome
Edited by: Bartolome  May 9, 07, 13:22  #11
Quoting: ladystardust
Young people is what the country needs most at the moment, and we need them here

Well, I couldn't find a job for 2 years, so I'm not that needed in my beloved country that badly, am I ?
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Matyjasz
  May 9, 07, 14:34  #12
Quoting: ladystardust
Well, I actually think it may be very, very selfish to leave. Frankly, I know that there is high unemployment rate in Poland, but not as high and the whole situation is not as terrible as it is presented on TV or newspapers. I never had any problems with working here, nor my family or friends. There is a whole bunch of Poles, though, who say: "I am not going to work here at some company for 1500 PLN a month, I prefer to get the hell out of here" - and I think that is selfish, not thinking of the fact that if everyone leaves, it will never be better here. Young people is what the country needs most at the moment, and we need them here, not in the UK, where they don't give a damn about anything, just earn pounds. OF COURSE, I am not talking about all Poles abroad - only of a fraction of them.



It certainly is sad how many young poles lost faith in the country their grandparents fought for, but still I wouldn't call it selfish.
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sparrow
  May 9, 07, 14:59  #13
I think it's way too idealistic to expect young Poles to stay while they can have a much brighter future in another country be it career-wise or any other way. It's very easy to sit behind a PC & midly critise them for it. But in order to make them stay you have to improve the country first & not the other way around.

And I'm sure it will improve but that takes time. It's only been 17 years since the wall fell down.. that's nothing. In the '50s tons & tons of Italians, Portuguese, Greek & Spanish emigrated to France, Belgium, the UK, etc to work in coal mines, because there wasn't any work. After that those countries joined the EU & have become wealthy western states. All you can hope for is that the same happens in Poland.

Apart from all nationalistic feelings, what would you do? If I studied for 3-4 years & could only get a crappy paid job with no long-term opportunities or no job at all.. heck.. I'd get the **** out of there. I want to get the most out of it.
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ladystardust
  May 10, 07, 07:51  #14
Sparrow, I have a specific job, for which I would get at least 4 times more money, if I went to Ireland or the US. Really, I've seen job ads. The thing is, I WAS living abroad and running away from there as quickly as possible - not because it was so bad, but because money is not all. What is the point of earning more if you see your family once a year? Maybe it is just me - really, not trying to impose my views on anyone - but I was always having hard times trying to fit in, because no materr how nice and polite and well-eductaed you are, you'll always be a foreigner abroad, always have to prove, that you are actually not that bad. I think it's the same with foreigners here, it's just in the human nature to be suspicious of "the others". And as for selfishness - I am sorry if I am too harsh - I cannot really stomach meeting Poles e.g. in London, where they cry how much they miss Poland, yearn for news, talk how bad it is to live and work in London - but still, they make totally no use of their education and work in the least-paid jobs. Because that's the reality - only a small fraction of them p3erform the job they've studied to perform, so financial factor seems a bit stretched anyways...
Ufff, sorry for this lenghty piece ;)

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sparrow
  May 10, 07, 09:09  #15
Quoting: ladystardust
Sparrow, I have a specific job, for which I would get at least 4 times more money, if I went to Ireland or the US. Really, I've seen job ads. The thing is, I WAS living abroad and running away from there as quickly as possible - not because it was so bad, but because money is not all. What is the point of earning more if you see your family once a year? Maybe it is just me - really, not trying to impose my views on anyone - but I was always having hard times trying to fit in, because no materr how nice and polite and well-eductaed you are, you'll always be a foreigner abroad, always have to prove, that you are actually not that bad. I think it's the same with foreigners here, it's just in the human nature to be suspicious of "the others". And as for selfishness - I am sorry if I am too harsh - I cannot really stomach meeting Poles e.g. in London, where they cry how much they miss Poland, yearn for news, talk how bad it is to live and work in London - but still, they make totally no use of their education and work in the least-paid jobs. Because that's the reality - only a small fraction of them p3erform the job they've studied to perform, so financial factor seems a bit stretched anyways...
Ufff, sorry for this lenghty piece ;)



I understand what you're trying to say, and it's more than the money alone. It's also about opportunities career-wise & in your personal life. There are enough stories about Poles who take on higher education for 3-4-5 years only to have to get a menial job afterwards. If there's an opportunity to "expand" yourself abroad, grab it I say.

For lots of Poles ( & others) it's basically about having a job in the first place. And having an opportunity to earn wads of cash abroad & coming back to your homeland afterwards isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Money isn't everything but we can twist & turn our thoughts about cash how we want, at the end of the day being financially secure gives us a happier life.

I really respect the fact you've stayed in Poland & maybe it is indeed selfish, but is there anything wrong with being selfish in order to be happier in life? You tell me :)
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ladystardust
  May 11, 07, 05:03  #16
Sparrow, right you are, of course. If we talk about people who leave seeking bettre job opportunities, personal development etc - that's okay. If the unemployed leave, because they need to support themselves financially - that's okay. I was basically - -probably should have said that in the start - talking about young people my age, who study on public universities for free and constantly say "As soon as I have my MA's, I'm getting the hell out of this piece of s*** country".
And yes - you're right that as long as you're happy, things are okay. I would just add one small amendment - if your happiness is not your only selfish goal in life ;)

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sparrow
  May 11, 07, 06:44  #17
Quoting: ladystardust
"As soon as I have my MA's, I'm getting the hell out of this piece of s*** country".


That's indeed selfish. You are absolutely right. But now that we've settled that.. we can move on & ask ourselves: Is it bad to be selfish? :)
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ladystardust
  May 11, 07, 07:31  #18
Well, as I said: I don't think that pursuit of happiness is any excuse for lack of moral standards :) Very general, I know, what I just want to say is that happiness should not be achieved at all cost. So if one is not hurting anyone and does not lose the moral standpoint, I am very much in favour of selfishness ;)
... And I thought I was very much past the idalistic phase of my life ;)

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Eamon
  May 11, 07, 16:39  #19
Quoting: ladystardust
Sparrow, I have a specific job, for which I would get at least 4 times more money, if I went to Ireland or the US. Really, I've seen job ads

In the Uk the cost of living is high, I live in cambridge and I know a lot of poles over here and they ether work never go out , eat the cheapist food and try and save, or if they live and go out at weekends and that sort of thing they hardly save a penny, unless they have a real good job.

in the Uk you might get £200 - 300 after tax in a normal job, a good night out costs £50 + a pack of cigarettes are nearly £6 a beer £3 a room to rent £60 + a week so a night out your room and a weeks supply of smoke is half your wages and you havent eaten yet.

THE GRASS ALWAYS LOOKS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE !

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